tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post113633140451990922..comments2024-03-15T07:24:22.608+00:00Comments on Life on Wings - A Tribute to Dr Ern Baxter: Dan Bowenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-11341885943247721592008-01-08T23:42:00.000+00:002008-01-08T23:42:00.000+00:00I don't have a good feeling about CJ's teaching on...I don't have a good feeling about CJ's teaching on this. As a never married single in my 40's I have always found comfort that at least SOMEBODY ( Jesus ) loves me like this ! I have disbilities and proably will never marry. But this life isn't my home. I am just passing through.<BR/> I am thinking of Earl Paulk and what happened to him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-21067423648764091942007-03-29T17:21:00.000+01:002007-03-29T17:21:00.000+01:00Terry at the last prayer and fasting on Song of So...Terry at the last prayer and fasting on Song of Songs being about the church: "I don't have the same problem as CJ with this being about the church as well as about marriage."<BR/><BR/>Not that that settles it, but it surely gives some leadership to us on the issue!Luke Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00966431415035294926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1150604999660046232006-06-18T05:29:00.000+01:002006-06-18T05:29:00.000+01:00An absolutely outstanding rebuttal to C J Mahaney'...An absolutely outstanding rebuttal to C J Mahaney's weird hermeneutic. I don't understand why he felt any need whatsoever to embark on this line of thought. He was there to address the men on sex, romance and the glory of God - not to launch his own apologetic on a book of the Bible.<BR/><BR/>I've read the book of the conference and it just doesn't fit in. Maybe Mahaney felt intimidated by the other more scholarly men present.<BR/><BR/>Weird!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1138781000825945642006-02-01T08:03:00.000+00:002006-02-01T08:03:00.000+00:00Hi Stewart, I must admit a failure on my part to g...Hi Stewart, I must admit a failure on my part to get the NAC commentary yet! Bristol Christian bookshops leave something to be desired. I am going to London today so have a large wish list of books (that commentary included) to hunt out. If not - its back to Amazon!<BR/><BR/>I will definately write any comeback down, because a few more thoughts have come to mind - although I must be honest, I can't see Mahaney persuading me yet ... but you never know!<BR/><BR/>DDan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1138737846436880822006-01-31T20:04:00.000+00:002006-01-31T20:04:00.000+00:00Any further on the NAC commentary and any comeback...Any further on the NAC commentary and any comeback?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137768930319675502006-01-20T14:55:00.000+00:002006-01-20T14:55:00.000+00:00Dan Bowen is right.Dan Bowen is right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137435847933210552006-01-16T18:24:00.000+00:002006-01-16T18:24:00.000+00:00But that's the whole problem that was emphasised i...But that's the whole problem that was emphasised in this article - that Mahaney never took the time to make his scholarly case (if he had one!!). He just made stupid jokes and took the mick out of the academic, historically honoured viewpoint.<BR/><BR/>He doesn't have any academic training, so never pretends to be a scholar, but maybe he should just then preach his message on Sex and leave academics TO the academics!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137353140934755132006-01-15T19:25:00.000+00:002006-01-15T19:25:00.000+00:00Thanks for the commentary suggestion, I will defin...Thanks for the commentary suggestion, I will definately get and read that one. Interesting to hear that Josephus and other Jewish historians seem at odds with the historical view presented too. Thanks again and good to hear your valued opinion.Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137271101125818152006-01-14T20:38:00.000+00:002006-01-14T20:38:00.000+00:00You should check out Duane Garrett's commentary on...You should check out Duane Garrett's commentary on Song of Solomon & Proverbs in the NAC (New Amerian Commentary series). He stands shoulder to shoulder (as i do) with the Mahaney stand point. His arguement is extremely scholarly and argued insightfully with plenty of serious evidence to support his view (Josephus & Other Jewish historians!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137260045480916312006-01-14T17:34:00.000+00:002006-01-14T17:34:00.000+00:00Yes that is a good point. It doesn't matter HOW c...Yes that is a good point. It doesn't matter HOW charismatic (in the sense of personality not giftings) the preacher is - we still must weigh all by Scripture! In fact, I think the MORE charismatic they are, the MORE suspicious we should be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137255169402998682006-01-14T16:12:00.000+00:002006-01-14T16:12:00.000+00:00Great article. I had heard Mahaney's argument, bu...Great article. I had heard Mahaney's argument, but I do stand persuaded actually. Amusing he may be, passionate maybe - but its not enough. Thanks for that insight!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1137165557421440882006-01-13T15:19:00.000+00:002006-01-13T15:19:00.000+00:00many thanks for this carefully researched article....many thanks for this carefully researched article. I hadn't even realised that the historical view was under attack!! What a load of baloney - take it literally! If just the Song of Solomon, then I think we ought to take Leviticus literally too!! Burn down houses with mildew!! :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136906155800563472006-01-10T15:15:00.000+00:002006-01-10T15:15:00.000+00:00Yes absolutely right. Newfrontiers seem to be abl...Yes absolutely right. Newfrontiers seem to be able to manage the tension well - holding to the view that the role of teaching elders is for men, but resisting getting into the ridiculous view that women can't do "anything" like leading worship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136820912083794912006-01-09T15:35:00.000+00:002006-01-09T15:35:00.000+00:00Yes I would agree, I'm a bit nervous of the undert...Yes I would agree, I'm a bit nervous of the undertones of exclusive royalty for the man. I like Newfrontiers sensible view on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that the only functional difference is that of preaching - they allow so much scope and room for women to flourish in their amazing giftings ESPECIALLY worship leading!!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136735004089128612006-01-08T15:43:00.000+00:002006-01-08T15:43:00.000+00:00I definately don't like Sam's logic - King=authori...I definately don't like Sam's logic - King=authority and Husband=authority therefore husband=King. It just sets the framework for an authoritaritan marriage with a dominating husband surpressing a wife. Not good! :(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136695200589403922006-01-08T04:40:00.000+00:002006-01-08T04:40:00.000+00:00Thanks for extensive comment Sam! I will read thi...Thanks for extensive comment Sam! I will read this and consider it carefully as you've obviously researched this well. Do appreciate that - and thanks for taking the time to comment.Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136695109552080942006-01-08T04:38:00.001+00:002006-01-08T04:38:00.001+00:00Hey Matt, thanks for comment. Alas I think most o...Hey Matt, thanks for comment. Alas I think most of the 20 are me - not keeping my mouth shut! So don't get too excited! <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure Mahaney begins the turn of the tide - I think the literal view has been around. It was just unfortunate the view was presented at a famous conference under a famous name and spread through many mediums.<BR/><BR/>Anyway - I hope that the entry looking at the third way encourages you as it did me!!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136695106971319212006-01-08T04:38:00.000+00:002006-01-08T04:38:00.000+00:00While I respect your opinion, I believe you have s...While I respect your opinion, I believe you have some flaws in your logic, history, and Biblal reasoning.<BR/><BR/><B>Flaws in Logic</B><BR/>A King symbolizes authority, or headship of a state. Eph 5:23 claims that the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. The bible is very clear in establishing the husband as the head of the family unit, much like a king is the head of a state. <BR/><BR/><B>Flaws in History</B><BR/>Historically, the Jewish religion used the Song of Solomon as a Lover's instruction manual and taught the men based on it. It was often forbidden for a woman to read. Furthemore, when the canon (what you refer to as Bible) was being assembled, there was much debate over whether to include Song of Solomon because of the intense sexual references. It is true that in the last 200-500 years Church leaders have changed their views on SOS, but go back further into history and you find it was often interpreted literally, not figuratively. <BR/><BR/><B>Flaws in Biblical reasoning</B><BR/>Hermeneutics, the science of interpreting the scripture taught at many seminaries teaches a literal interpretation of the bible with some exceptions. Exceptions are made for prophetic passages, which would be words spoken by a prophet. However, the Song of Solomon was not written by a prophet, nor does it have any traditional prophetic language. <BR/><BR/><B>Consider This</B><BR/>Solomon was known for his wisdom. The wisdom of Solomon is recorded for us in Provers, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon (Songs). In Proverbs, Solomon specifically gives wisdom to his son regarding marriage and sex; therefore, the Song of Solomon if interpreted literally is consistent with the teachings in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes.SAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17993754608829136235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136694950632782382006-01-08T04:35:00.000+00:002006-01-08T04:35:00.000+00:00Rats ... I was hoping to be your 20th commentator!...Rats ... I was hoping to be your 20th commentator!! I think this post carries the most comments you've had yet?! Hence most controversial maybe!?<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to thank you - I'm in a similar position to you in an orthodox Christian church in Canada - same difficulties, same fears, same prejudices etc etc.<BR/><BR/>I did read Mahaney's article in Sex and the SOC and was very fearful that this marked the tide of an exclusivity to the Song of Songs - ie for married people only!! No singles allowed!<BR/><BR/>So thanks for "stemming the tide".<BR/><BR/>MattxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136694125304602272006-01-08T04:22:00.000+00:002006-01-08T04:22:00.000+00:00Great post and I love your subtle SGM-baiting. Ke...Great post and I love your subtle SGM-baiting. Keep that sense of humour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136684537362176362006-01-08T01:42:00.000+00:002006-01-08T01:42:00.000+00:00You might like to know that I've found another way...You might like to know that I've found another way Bobby J - one that seems to integrate both! It's certainly helped consolidate my views on the SOS.Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136684172825470112006-01-08T01:36:00.000+00:002006-01-08T01:36:00.000+00:00I think I agree ... but there are some holes in th...I think I agree ... but there are some holes in the historical view that surely Mahaney might have a point on? Such as the erotic language?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136680157595347252006-01-08T00:29:00.000+00:002006-01-08T00:29:00.000+00:00You're naughty. I love it. You most certainly do...You're naughty. I love it. You most certainly don't come to bring peace on the earth but a sword ... still you're in good company!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136635184820721812006-01-07T11:59:00.000+00:002006-01-07T11:59:00.000+00:00Thank u for this - an incredibly powerfully argued...Thank u for this - an incredibly powerfully argued essay. I feel ashamed that we so rarely exercise the practice of the Bereans and weigh what these men are saying rather than just taking it as writ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1136572221663903272006-01-06T18:30:00.000+00:002006-01-06T18:30:00.000+00:00Yes I would agree, but I also am concerned that th...Yes I would agree, but I also am concerned that there is a danger of understanding it and interpreting it on the "literal" side because of our taboo with sex.<BR/><BR/>I've read quite a few papers (including Mahaney himself) where they pour scorn on this book being an allegory because our relationship with Christ CANNOT have such intimate language connected with it.<BR/><BR/>And suddenly - there is a link between Mahaney's argument for seeing the Song of Solomon as literal and Bob Kauflin's dislike of songs along the theme of "God is my boyfriend or girlfriend". See: http://www.worshipmatters.com.<BR/><BR/>And that opens up a whole new field of discussion - namely how SHOULD we relate to God?Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.com