tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post114158847716155941..comments2024-03-15T07:24:22.608+00:00Comments on Life on Wings - A Tribute to Dr Ern Baxter: Dan Bowenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1141753213850546442006-03-07T17:40:00.000+00:002006-03-07T17:40:00.000+00:00That's a fair and valid point, although at my home...That's a fair and valid point, although at my home church much was made of the fact that we wouldn't alter our worship, or the flow of spiritual gifts or the preaching to be "seeker friendly". And indeed many were saved and touched powerfully by the Presence of the Spirit in the worship! My pastor Dr J told of an account where a non-Christian was saved through his sermon on headcovering!!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1141660122754632312006-03-06T15:48:00.000+00:002006-03-06T15:48:00.000+00:00True, though it'd be pretty difficult to exercise ...True, though it'd be pretty difficult to exercise such discernment without actually committing to being part of a local church in the first place...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1141658835040345012006-03-06T15:27:00.000+00:002006-03-06T15:27:00.000+00:00I agree with you in part at least. I just think i...I agree with you in part at least. I just think it is possible to have all those things and still not be totally open to the work of the Spirit in a church or even in your individual life. It's not that the Spirit is not there and He's not doing work, it's that he's being hindered or grieved. There are plenty of 'successful' and growing churches that are saying all the right things and doing all the right things but are like the church of Galatia--not living according to the Spirit, but according to the law (or flesh). It really does take discernment to know the difference.julhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1141652596787853172006-03-06T13:43:00.000+00:002006-03-06T13:43:00.000+00:00I think my point would be, that pretty much everyt...I think my point would be, that pretty much everything in Harris' list are the things that the Spirit produces it a godly church and godly leaders.... i.e. If a church isn't marked by the Spirit's presence it can't have those things. <BR/><BR/>And in fairness to Harris the things he lists are thones you can observe, whereas the tangible (?) presence is rather more subjective (not less real though) and not so easy to measure. <BR/><BR/>Whether or not you notice the presence of the Spirit in a church probably has something to do with where you're standing with God, as much as with the church itself. <BR/><BR/>And the stuff that you can see is what happens in relationships and teaching etc - i.e. what Harris lists..<BR/><BR/>?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1141650842360975462006-03-06T13:14:00.000+00:002006-03-06T13:14:00.000+00:00I think we are always tempted to think if we can't...I think we are always tempted to think if we can't measure God's presence in some concrete mathmatical way, then we shouldn't evaluate at all. We are as believers all given the Holy Spirit. It is that very reality which makes us completely able to discern in a church whether His presence is desired and experienced in a significant life-changing way. It is possible for a church to be grieving the Spirit, and in a place like that, a discerning believer will sense overwhelming sadness or even worse, nothing at all. Unfortunately, people are meeting together in the name of Christ for all kinds of reasons, and many times it is not to meet God and surrender to his agenda. We should pray and ask God to reveal to us the heart of the church we are considering. While there are many objective things to consider when choosing a church, the deciding 'vote' should come from the Holy Spirit.julhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1141631352637805322006-03-06T07:49:00.000+00:002006-03-06T07:49:00.000+00:00Granted there is the issue of the experience of th...Granted there is the issue of the experience of the Spirit's presence... if there are Christians in the church - and it's not a church if it hasn't got that... then the presence of the Spirit is there.... and the presence of the Spirit being "in" believers... surely means that the Spirit is there if you have the Spirit and you join it.... and what if the majority of people present aren't Christians.... (i.e because they're big on evangelism)<BR/><BR/>I see your point, but I'm not sure *how* that would work as a test for joining a church.... and given things like teaching, humility, integrity and fellowship are in Josh Harris' list then those things are certainly *part* of how the Spirit is present...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.com