tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post1166271133220104339..comments2024-03-15T07:24:22.608+00:00Comments on Life on Wings - A Tribute to Dr Ern Baxter: The ULTIMATE Church DisciplineDan Bowenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-91844980022581164272009-09-22T06:32:33.965+01:002009-09-22T06:32:33.965+01:00Yep Lydia - got it in one - Matthew 18 carries the...Yep Lydia - got it in one - Matthew 18 carries the other implicit "threat" of "exposure" to the rest of the church. I think it's a different story if the pastors with broken hearts are saying to the unrepentant sinner, "Look, we love you, we care for you, and we must do this because we want more people praying for you!" - and then proceed to share again with broken hearts this to the church. But sadly both times I've seen Matthew 18 in play - Dunstable and Bristol - it was done angrily and as a threat.<br /><br />Sheila - thank you for sharing that. That sounds to me like it actually WAS the right use of this Scripture perhaps. How difficult that must have been for you guys.Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-55198704023378173552009-09-21T20:34:18.671+01:002009-09-21T20:34:18.671+01:00In all our years of ministry, I've only seen T...In all our years of ministry, I've only seen Tim (my husband) invoke this Scripture one time. Only once. And it DID involve someone being completely, entirely unrepentant, and it DID involve this person being an absolute danger to people in the body. (He physically attacked his own elderly father, a member of our church...*elderly* father!)<br /><br />This man held onto the same patterns, unrepentant, for twenty or more years, his wife ended up divorcing him, and he stole from people, and then, as I said, attacked his frail father, because his father said some things to him. His father was completely calm, but very honest, and he flew into a rage. <br /><br />Tim prayed with our church leadership (then consisting of himself and two other men, I believe) and handed him over - in full faith and knowlege that it was "for the destruction of his flesh SO THAT his soul would be saved in the end."<br /><br />Within ONE month, Tim was preaching this man's funeral. This has been within the past year.<br /><br />I wish I were exaggerating or making this up.<br /><br />HOWEVER...in reading this man's journal and personal notes, after his unexpected death (not suicide! The investigators and autopsy ruled out both suicide and homicide! It was simple heart failure...whew.)<br /><br />...these notes revealed that his heart was softening, and he saw the truth about himself.<br /><br />This man walked with God in his youth...and there was a flicker of that relationship still there, in his own handwriting, in the days and hours before he died. He cried out to God.<br /><br />Therefore, Tim preached his funeral as preaching about one who is now in eternity with God, forever out of the reach of demon spirits. Part of the funeral service of this man was the words to this old hymn:<br /><br /> My hope is built on nothing less<br />Than Jesus' blood and righteousness<br />I dare not trust the sweetest frame<br />But wholly lean on Jesus' Name<br /><br />When darkness seems to hide His face<br />I rest on His unchanging grace<br />In every high and stormy gale<br />My anchor holds within the veil<br /><br />His oath, His covenant, His blood<br />Support me in the whelming flood<br />When all around my soul gives way<br />He then is all my Hope and Stay<br /><br />When He shall come with trumpet sound<br />Oh may I then in Him be found<br />Dressed in His righteousness alone<br />Faultless to stand before the throne<br /><br />On Christ the solid Rock I stand<br />All other ground is sinking sand<br />All other ground...is sinking sand!<br /><br />This man's parents, his ex wife, his children, and all of us were comforted, and able to have complete faith that this destruction of his flesh was SO THAT his soul could be saved. This is no fluffy sentiment...sometimes someone's mental stability depends on being able to take God at His word in this way!<br /><br />I honestly cannot imagine ever having to "turn someone over" again. It would have to be that extreme...with the person entirely unrepentant, and a danger to others.Sheila Atchleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08989452938845114084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-91820325946492899692009-09-21T12:41:33.204+01:002009-09-21T12:41:33.204+01:00Dan,
It's good you raise questions like these...Dan, <br />It's good you raise questions like these. The church has WAY too many doctrines built on single verses anyway. <br />Julie and I have discussed this verse, she has some good thoughts on it, maybe she will comment. <br />The only time I have seen this verse put to action, in a helpful way (cause believe me I have seen it in an unhelpful way too) was in my parent's church. A member was an alcoholic, and I do not know all the details. He was sent away and apparently it was the best thing that ever happened to him. The severity of it woke him up and he was able to get set free and have restored relationships. <br />My personal thoughts are that this action would be more for someone who is endangering not only themselves but others as well, and they have hardened their hearts to change. After awhile you just don't cast your pearls before swine and you protect your other people from one who is stuck or enslaved to 'whatever'. <br />I have heard Rob say, he will extend grace upon grace to everyone in his church, but when someone starts to threaten or hurt others he will become like a roaring lion or something. Haha. <br />I feel like this verse is more for situations like that, you simply must not put others in harms way. <br />Anyway, just my 2 cents..........I wonder how this verse relates with Matthew 18??? I bet they are used together - didn't you get that Scripture too back then???lydiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-61653647493204587452009-09-21T07:11:11.516+01:002009-09-21T07:11:11.516+01:00I would agree with you MR that the most serious wa...I would agree with you MR that the most serious warnings relate to legalism. Funny, I've certainly never ever heard of a church member/pastor being "handed over to Satan" for being legalistic! Entire churches would be set free to wander!<br /><br />However I'm still not happy with the whole ethos of church discipline being built around one mention in 1 Corinthians. Surely the understanding of what Paul was telling the Corinthians to do was so dire, that as I understand it the unrepentant church member repented swiftly anyway.<br /><br />Paul says "for the destruction of his flesh". Doesn't that suggest that the action the church took would have severe effects on his health, possibly even his swift translation to glory? He was "once saved always saved" after all.<br /><br />Modern equivalants seem to be nothing like that whatsoever. I being one of them. Church members are being "handed over to Satan" but it's rather notable that Satan doesn't seem to be doing much "destruction of the flesh"!<br /><br />Four years or so later and I'm still here and alive.<br /><br />Does that suggest that the church leaders had no business uttering threats like that (as I certainly was not unrepentant) or that Satan is not active (highly unlikely)?<br /><br />I think the key thing here surely is absolute caution. There is more references to Paul instructing women to cover their heads in worship than there is instruction on this church discipline. He devotes a whole chapter to head covering! Do we really want to take this drastic action based on one verse?Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-52028499281577988002009-09-20T22:51:36.245+01:002009-09-20T22:51:36.245+01:00There are places in the messages to the 7 churches...There are places in the messages to the 7 churches in Revelation where God Himself rebukes church leaders for allowing immorality and false doctrine in the church. Church leaders are held responsible for guarding the congregation against these threats, so some kind of action is needed. Actually, probably the most serious false doctrine is legalism, and I personally believe that the "Synagogue of Satan" warnings refer to legalism.<br /><br />Certainly pastors should not exercise this type of discipline based on a mere suspicion that a church member is sexually immoral! There needs to be clear evidence of a pattern of sin without repentance. Even then the response should not be to lay rules on that sinner's back as an added burden to bear. Rather leaders need to humbly, in love, urge the sinner to repent and follow Jesus. If he or she refuses to stop their bad influence on the congregation, then the more serious action may be considered.MRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747154844168947527noreply@blogger.com