tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post7847072519791740997..comments2024-03-15T07:24:22.608+00:00Comments on Life on Wings - A Tribute to Dr Ern Baxter: A Visit to the Evangelical Library and an Encounter with Jonathan Edwards!Dan Bowenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-17440470853279395382007-04-08T16:12:00.000+01:002007-04-08T16:12:00.000+01:00there's some deep stuff here, this is really cool....there's some deep stuff here, this is really cool. Hope that you save up enuf money to buy the Jonathan Edwards books! Maybe we can have a whip-round for your 30th birthday?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-5965873520120667182007-04-05T07:41:00.000+01:002007-04-05T07:41:00.000+01:00Thanks Jul and Peter for your gracious comments an...Thanks Jul and Peter for your gracious comments and deep understanding. I do indeed feel welcome here. I'm not quite sure of the story of Baxter's Boy but I sense some deep understanding and similarity in our experiences - indeed many of our experiences. I'm not looking for a pity party but it is incredible how the church which is meant to be "the dearest place on earth" as Mahaney trumpets so often, is often the cruelest place on earth.<BR/><BR/>I dislike the anonymous banner especially as I suspect some SGM-ites are using it to fire shots across the bow but I hope all will understand.<BR/><BR/>Many thanks to all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-272350044998613662007-04-02T00:01:00.000+01:002007-04-02T00:01:00.000+01:00Hi anonymous. My husband and I left Sovereign Gra...Hi anonymous. My husband and I left Sovereign Grace last year after being there for 8 years or so. I will keep you in my prayers as I know it can be a very difficult time. We are still working through legalism and other issues, basically un-learning a few things! May God pour out his lavish grace on you and your family.julhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-84441302536215042072007-04-01T21:13:00.000+01:002007-04-01T21:13:00.000+01:00Dear friendly anonymous personThank you so much fo...Dear friendly anonymous person<BR/><BR/>Thank you so much for your honesty in sharing these things. It is sad that there has been this slide from the Holy Spirit and it must have been hard leaving a church you love.<BR/><BR/>But God bless you and encourage you and may He lead you to a wonderful Christ-glorifying, Spirit-filled church where God's Word is honoured.<BR/><BR/>Its good that you have found this site a blessing. I know I have.<BR/><BR/>If I might leave you with Paul's prayer in Colossians 1v9-12: "For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light."Peter Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498529242569940604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-49494013170238834882007-04-01T13:58:00.000+01:002007-04-01T13:58:00.000+01:00Let me make it clear that I am not the rather blun...Let me make it clear that I am not the rather blunt anonymous person but for reasons I hope will be clear I didn't want to put my name. Apologies.<BR/><BR/>I have found the discussion around the Song of Solomon incredidbly interesting and profitable. I DO agree that it is worth debating and taking a stand on as it concerns the very Wrod of God - our highest authority.<BR/><BR/>I have been within SGM at a major church for some 20 yeasr and only left recently due to my concern with their gradual slide away from the Holy Spirit and life in the Spirit but this matter of the Song of Solomon and the way that C J has dealt with it is very characteristic of the form of preaching and teaching within the group of churches.<BR/><BR/>They will say things like "We will never move beyond the Cross" and "Cross centred life" etc etc but will indeed address mattesr like the Song of Solomon and who it applies for and to. However if you do disagree with the viewpoint they take and attempt to address it with the leadership you will be told that you shouldn't argue about things that are outside the Gospel or the Cross and that maybe your argumentative spirit shows pride. So you see as I found it is hard to express diversity without incurring the wrath of the leadership!<BR/><BR/>I don't say that intending to imply that all is bad. I spent 20 years there for goodness sake! But I have noted an increase intolerance of any disagreement with the preached word. <BR/><BR/>It's good to find I am not unique in my experience. As I say I would rather remain private as I do still have friends within the church and don't wish to offend.<BR/><BR/>Many thanks. I hope that is okay.<BR/><BR/>With appreciation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-83213782812945074872007-03-31T22:57:00.000+01:002007-03-31T22:57:00.000+01:00CJ can amaze me at times, having said that, His me...CJ can amaze me at times, having said that, His message at the Bright conference on the death of Christ was earthshaking, a real passion of the Christ sermon.<BR/><BR/>As a reformed charismatic puritan :) the idea of an encounter with Jonathan Edwards God through his writings, is something that stirs zeal and hunger for God deep within me. <BR/><BR/>I hold my hands up, next to Edwards I am ashamedly aware of my superficiality. Edwards and his contemporaries were giants among men.<BR/><BR/>JonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-33169487305465190872007-03-30T19:54:00.000+01:002007-03-30T19:54:00.000+01:00That is a really important point, Dr Collingford. ...That is a really important point, Dr Collingford. For the book to have significance in heaven (for surely it must, God's word is eternal!) then it must be a glorious reflection of Christ's love for His bride.<BR/><BR/>I hope, too, that wise counsel will prevail and that CJ Mahaney and those who have heard this message, might see again the wonders of this beautiful book as it speaks of our beloved Lord.Peter Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498529242569940604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-15932635660535900922007-03-30T19:18:00.000+01:002007-03-30T19:18:00.000+01:00This is an incredibly interesting debate that I st...This is an incredibly interesting debate that I stumbled across on the internet quite by accident. I am a 40 year old pastor with 15 years experience in the ministry and I have never contemplated before that this most beautiful of books of the Word of God could be anything but a beautiful combination of primarily being about the Church and the Lion of Judah with some truth to be learned and benefited for the marriage bed.<BR/><BR/>To read that someone like this man who I haven't heard of before is claiming that it is EXCLUSIVELY for marriage and sex is to me somewhat offensive. How can Christ be cut out of anything of His own Word? And how can it be possible that the meaning and significance of this Book will cease to have significance in heaven, for as we know there will be no marriage in heaven and no sex! Can it be that this most beautiful of Books will cease to have significance? Ridiculous!<BR/><BR/>I do hope that someone close to this Mahaney will stand up to his view, no matter how sincere he thinks he may be, and challenge it. For this is the Word of God! And his arguments do not stand up to logic, to true exposition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-42998231572332965102007-03-30T15:38:00.000+01:002007-03-30T15:38:00.000+01:00Amen. A true apostolic father who isn't going to ...Amen. A true apostolic father who isn't going to allow experience to shape his theology.<BR/><BR/>Hey Dan. Start up a "Tribute to Terry Virgo" site. We wanna read his sermons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-52121879133516797052007-03-29T23:42:00.000+01:002007-03-29T23:42:00.000+01:00Just when I thought I couldn't love Terry more... ...Just when I thought I couldn't love Terry more... loljulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-13264532953444966192007-03-29T18:21:00.000+01:002007-03-29T18:21:00.000+01:00My friend Luke Wood from Sheffield soon to be Sout...My friend Luke Wood from Sheffield soon to be Southampton has made an EXTREMELY helpful comment over at the original Song of Solomon post. He said;<BR/><BR/>"Terry at the last prayer and fasting on Song of Songs being about the church: "I don't have the same problem as CJ with this being about the church as well as about marriage."<BR/><BR/>Not that that settles it, but it surely gives some leadership to us on the issue!"<BR/><BR/>If I had any doubts before, I don't know!! Hurrah for Terry!! And for Luke! Thanks for that!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-76931818187797622502007-03-29T14:06:00.000+01:002007-03-29T14:06:00.000+01:00I've just discovered how to put titles on my blog ...I've just discovered how to put titles on my blog posts!! Hurrah!! I feel that is another major breakthrough for the techno-idiot that I am! Very exciting. I'm quite proud of myself!!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-55127907324301673442007-03-29T13:37:00.000+01:002007-03-29T13:37:00.000+01:00Oh please. Respect isn't automatically granted. ...Oh please. Respect isn't automatically granted. Respect has to be earned. Didn't earn speak of the difference between ecclesiastical appointing and spiritual anointing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-40536992934892769602007-03-29T13:33:00.000+01:002007-03-29T13:33:00.000+01:00Awesome awesome posts my brother! I love the thou...Awesome awesome posts my brother! I love the thought of you scouring the dusty shelves of the E.L and finding a treasure trove in this book! These quotes are like pure gold. I almost felt bad, peering from afar into the heart of a man who was passionately in communion with His God. Who wasn't afraid to be intimate with Him. Who wasn't afraid to call Him Abba.<BR/><BR/>I find the whole Mahaney thing just plain weird I'm afraid. I think Jul has the most accurate analysis. There is a rabid fear of becoming something less than an "alpha male" and not looking "cool or sporty". Hence this distaste for anything too close. Yet what concerns me is that some are now adjusting Scripture to suit their alpha male likes and dislikes and that ISNT acceptable.<BR/><BR/>Keep reading and keep writing!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-24530550309267062832007-03-28T19:37:00.000+01:002007-03-28T19:37:00.000+01:00Ah hah one mention of that magic "M" word and our ...Ah hah one mention of that magic "M" word and our mysterious anonymous angry man appears like a genie!!<BR/><BR/>I don't think Dan at all is being disrespectful to Mahaney as a person! He is simply expressing concern over a theological concept that Mahaney uttered publicly.<BR/><BR/>THATS the issue! Surely we are all allowed opinions that should be backed up with Scriptural explanation and reasoned arguing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-70577349418697629112007-03-28T19:32:00.000+01:002007-03-28T19:32:00.000+01:00When are you going to learn some respect for a man...When are you going to learn some respect for a man who is your senior, elder and better?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-6513338232863342982007-03-28T15:08:00.000+01:002007-03-28T15:08:00.000+01:00I must admit as a crusty old Pentecostal to findin...I must admit as a crusty old Pentecostal to finding this discussion of visiting a REFORMED library and reading REFORMED books by some young man who calls himself unashamedly a CHARISMATIC, it just baffles one!! ;)<BR/><BR/>There ... see I use emoticons too!<BR/><BR/>Part of me sighed reluctantly when I read your dogged determination to fight on about this issue of the Song of Songs. I'd rather you posted glory after glory on aspects of Kingdom life. But I am persuaded by your friends comments and your own that this is a key issue - intimacy in the church. Yes. I admit honestly that as a man I have problems reading the Song of Songs. I have problems keeping my mind pure. I have problems addressing it and seeing it as God-ward and Church-ward.<BR/><BR/>Yet I have never been tempted to turn it into a sex manual for married Christian couples. Outrageous! Like Dan, I am a single celibate man and therefore Mahaney's argument makes this book of God's Word (of which ALL is profitable for our instruction) unobtainable to me and to Dan and to other single men and women among us!<BR/><BR/>This simply cannot be. It goes against everything I have ever believed and so I hear and agree with what is being said. Let the intimacy of God return with holy awe and fear. For lest the cloud of glory appear before us and consume us for coming into the sanctuary with strange fire.<BR/><BR/>Dr S A J BurgessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-30788452117693975232007-03-28T14:30:00.000+01:002007-03-28T14:30:00.000+01:00I have spent a few minutes today in total shock an...I have spent a few minutes today in total shock and horror watching part of CJ Mahaney's messsage on Song of Solomon. It was extremely disturbing to hear him mock God's word, and to mock great men of God of past generations that have handed to us such a glorious legacy of exposition.<BR/><BR/>I was saddened by his quoting of some of the more extreme allegorical comments as if to prove a point that this book cannot possibly reflect Christ's love for His church. It is easy to quote extreme and unusual comments to make a point. But I need to say that the classical interpretation of Song of Songs isn't some narrow-minded invention of the Puritans, it is part of the heritage of the people of God - both of the old and new covenants.<BR/><BR/>At a recent conference in London, David Davis, pastor of Mount Carmel Assembly in Israel, shared teaching of many rabbis on Song of Solomon. It is interpreted, yes as a glorious reflection of the gift of sexuality. BUT - it is also a glorious and intimate reflection of God's love for His chosen people.<BR/><BR/>The Hebrew mindset is not shy of talking about sexual matters, but still many scholars have seen this glorious picture of God's love.<BR/><BR/>CJ Mahaney seems to think that the sexual language is inappropriate when talking of our relationship with God. He used the phrase "erotic language". But Song of Songs is not erotic - it is intimate, joyous, beautiful, passionate. All things that should reflect our relationship with God.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps this "new" interpretation is an example of interpreting scripture by our experience and not the other way round. Because many do not experience God in this way, it becomes necessary to change our view of scripture!<BR/><BR/>Let us not downgrade scripture to suit our lack of experience of God's love. Song of Songs should humble us by its powerful language. We should read it on our knees and cry out for the fire of the Spirit to pour into us this passionate love for the Lord. Our experience needs to change. We need to love God like the lover loves Him in Song of Songs. We need to bask in the extravagant love that our Beloved pours on us.Peter Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498529242569940604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-72095482057975775082007-03-28T14:01:00.000+01:002007-03-28T14:01:00.000+01:00Amen!! Thank you for that! I was just talking abo...Amen!! Thank you for that! I was just talking about you to Pete and saying how much I love your honesty and straightfowardness! It's very refreshing.<BR/><BR/>Yes I remember that's one of the things that concerned me so much over the "Draw Me Close to You" debate - remember?! Colson?! Why is it that we men especially find this intimacy hard to stomach?! Of course He is God and He is to be feared and awed. But the veil has been torn in two!! Christ has risen on high - our great High Priest! And with boldness we can draw near!!<BR/><BR/>I'm not lambasting Mahaney for fun. I am on a mission to see true intimacy restored to the church and I do think this message does damage to that.Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-55658759820948576572007-03-28T12:28:00.000+01:002007-03-28T12:28:00.000+01:00I think C.J. is so adamant about his view because ...I think C.J. is so adamant about his view because he cannot conceive of a deeply intimate relationship between us and God. He is strongly against any use of language in worship songs that is remotely similar to romantic or intimate love or emotion. Many men share his distaste for thinking of God as our husband. I don't quite understand this because God obviously created sex and marriage as a pale shadow of something better and eternal that we the church will experience in relationship with him. We are waiting for the return of our bridegroom and the marriage feast of the Lamb after all. I'm not sure it's wise to ban all such 'romantic' language when Scripture uses it so freely.julhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.com