tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post801949423614670913..comments2024-03-15T07:24:22.608+00:00Comments on Life on Wings - A Tribute to Dr Ern Baxter: Arguing While Rome Burns?Dan Bowenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-83256645988844454382007-02-02T16:31:00.000+00:002007-02-02T16:31:00.000+00:00I've been reading Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones sermons on...I've been reading Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones sermons on Revival for the umpteenth time!! I am amazed that this man who is so championed by reformed evangelicals so utterly inexcuses legalism in doctrinal orthodoxy. It's very easy to use and apply grace when we are safe in our one pastor-three or four elders-many congregation churches. But what happens when we get a prophet like Rob Rufus come among us and the "unlovely" start to come in - attracted by the power of God??!<br /><br />What happens when the prostitutes start to wander in and the homosexuals, the drug addicts and the victims of AIDS? Is it so easy to apply grace then? Who among us will walk straight upto them and welcome them into our midst and make them feel more loved than ever before?<br /><br />One true story. I brought a dear friend of mine to the prayer meeting night at Brighton 2005 - "Let the Nations Be Glad". He was a pagan and had been involved in witchcraft, the works. I couldn't think of a better context to introduce him to God than that meeting. As soon as he walked in and Evan Rodgers began his unique style of worship, he told me that he knew the room was filled with love and power. He said he could hear God speaking to him and telling him that He loved him so much that He gave His only Son just for him. <br /><br />My friend got actually freaked out and had to leave when the prayer begun because he said that he hadn't found such power even among the witches meetings he went to.<br /><br />Why did I tell that story?! Well it still moves me to this day but it was to emphasise that I think we need to stop being quite so paranoid about being "right". Of course orthodoxy matters. But I wonder if God is more bothered about the nations flowing UPWARDS to Zion, than He is how neat the chairs are arranged in Zion?<br /><br />I think I have never encountered true grace until I heard Terry on "God's Lavish Grace" and read that book. It's incredible that I have been through about 15 years of professed Christian life living as a legalist. I need to go read it again now!! It's grace that reaches people and breaks down the barriers. It's the Holy Spirit that is more than capable of reaching the most pagan among the nations.<br /><br />Let's not limit God!!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-80220107775448938082007-02-01T20:08:00.000+00:002007-02-01T20:08:00.000+00:00It's a fair comment I think, to relate the complem...It's a fair comment I think, to relate the complementarian issue to legalism/grace. A few years ago I was challenged by a friend (part of a Newfrontiers church, but not from that background) who said that they felt that sometimes we apply grace unequally. <br /><br />The example she gave was that we are comfortable to apply grace to a situation where a senior pastor resists building a team of elders, and is determined to remain a lone worker. On the other hand, we can see no way to apply grace to "women in leadership". I found it challenging and it has moulded my thinking. <br /><br />How much do we compromise? And I suspect much of what we might consider to be "compromise" isn't that at all, because we are usually too over-cautious about these things in the first place!Luke Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00966431415035294926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-62388131411169879302007-01-31T06:55:00.000+00:002007-01-31T06:55:00.000+00:00Thanks my fave four - for your comments!! I was r...Thanks my fave four - for your comments!! I was really interested in reading Grudem's comments in the Warnock interview in context Luke. I read the interview before, but glossed over the "lethargy" comment as rhetoric. But I think that's a healthy attitude to have actually. It will prevent him from becoming too obsessed with this one subject which is NOT the be-all and end-all of Christian life here on earth. Christ didn't die so that men could preach! <br /><br />I found the Internet Monk comments interesting and felt your comments were timely Mark! Thanks for them. I do think that Grudem hasn't made matters easy by allowing any middle ground whatsoever.<br /><br />Jul - once again I am really concerned that you were right in your blog a while back where you suspected that the evangelical church's greatest need is indeed legalism. It seems to subtly undergird everything and distorts everything! How easy it is to be proud that we do not allow women to preach or hold headship roles yet have no compassion on the hurting, no liberty for the bound.<br /><br />Scott made a good comment - how much could charities have used SGM's grant to Wayne Grudem to write this final book? It's funded another book that he himself says he's tired of writing when I have just watched a programme on TV where 10-13 year old girls are dying of anorexia nervosa and the Church hasn't got anything (it seems) to say on it.<br /><br />As Ginny Burgin said last year - WAKE UP CHURCH!!Dan Bowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15661120561123767936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-79493924542630734452007-01-26T13:48:00.000+00:002007-01-26T13:48:00.000+00:00Great post. Don't think I'll be reading either of...Great post. Don't think I'll be reading either of those books myself either, I'd most likely just get angry! Do you think linking the female teacher's sin and troubles to her egalitarian views is a bit legalistic? I mean, are we blessed by God through our performance or through his grace? Is blessing tied to our obedience or to Christ's? I'm not trying to downplay the importance of obedience, but true obedience is actually part of God's blessing to us, not the cause of his blessing. <br /><br />Once again I'm concerned that some complimentarians are very pleased with themselves: Oh Lord, thank you that I'm not a sinner like that egalitarian guy. I still don't see this as central to the gospel, but more likely a ploy of the enemy to interfere with us living together in love as we are supposed to, and to prevent the true gospel from going out in power. Which issue truly comes into any gospel call? I personally have never shared the good news of Christ coming as our mediator and sacrifice in any way that involved the 'good news' that women are 'equal but different'. Baptism, on the other hand, is woven into the very fabric of the message we are to proclaim to the world. <br /><br />Although this whole business disturbs me, I'm also excited to realize that there are many many believers who are unaware of this debate entirely because they are too busy doing God's work of extending his kingdom! I am always hoping to join their ranks...julhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688008902332240637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-69228364347957757022007-01-25T16:34:00.000+00:002007-01-25T16:34:00.000+00:00I must join everyone else in amazement at your rea...I must join everyone else in amazement at your reading of two weighty books in one day.<br /><br />I am a complementarian, too. I have taught it in our church, and I have found most of Grudem's arguments in Systematic Theology, and his co-edited book with John Piper, to be persuasive.<br /><br />However, I share your concern about the implication that this is an issue which is central to the gospel.<br /><br />Sure, it is important, and we all should want to be biblical. But am I going to stop fellowshiping with another church that allows a woman to preach? Maybe some would think I should, but if this church is working in partnership with our church in praying for our community, should I walk away and say "sorry, but because you don't agree with my interpretation of scripture in relation to women preachers, I am going to stop praying with you and the community can go to hell!"?<br /><br />I don't believe so. I do welcome sound exegesis of those difficult passages concerning the place of women in the church - and I believe that Grudem gives us that - and I am responsible myself for being biblical and sharing a right understanding with the church I pastor, but the issue of the role of women in the church does not determine whether or not a person is saved.<br /><br />We must get things in a proper perspective.Peter Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14498529242569940604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-1564905487780576932007-01-25T16:13:00.000+00:002007-01-25T16:13:00.000+00:00Hi Dan,
I'm impressed that you found the time to r...Hi Dan,<br />I'm impressed that you found the time to read all that. I thought about it and decided against it. I have however recently bought two commentaries on the pastorals - one by a Complementarian (Kostenberger) and one by an Egalitarian (Towner)<br /><br />Did you spot the <a href="http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/10-questions-for-complementarians-by-bill-mackinnon">recent post</a> on this issue over at internet monk? I took issue with the style of argument in the comments but it does show that things are not all right in the world of complementarianism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13792024.post-82446277521524012692007-01-25T14:40:00.000+00:002007-01-25T14:40:00.000+00:00This topic rears its head again!
I'm impressed w...This topic rears its head again! <br /><br />I'm impressed with your reading rate by the way. It's funny, the concerns you raise on "do we really need another Grudem book on <i>this</i> issue?" - I think he himself feels the same way. <br /><br />I can't remember where I get this from but it has definitely been expressed by him (quite possibly his Mobilise main session last year? Now the downloads are free I might check). I just remember feeling from him a sense of exhaustion with the topic and him saying something like <i>"after book x I thought I'd never write on this subject again. Now I've written y, and I definitely don't plan to ever write on the subject again."</i> - bear in mind that that's a summary, but I definitley heard that from him in one form or other over the last year. <br /><br />So you are not alone in your wonderings. I think reason he has written so extensively on it, is to cover all bases and all angles. Being done with the complementarian issue (in terms of writing) means he now has time to do things like be General Editor of the notes for the ESV Study Bible (which I'm very looking forward to!). <br /><br />So, I haven't really interracted with your main points (which I think are helpful by the way!) but thought you might be interested to know that Grudem himself agrees with you!<br /><br />P.S. Did you see that Greg's book is up for "Reference Book Of The Year" at the Christian Booksellers Convention next month?Luke Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00966431415035294926noreply@blogger.com