Even if we don't agree with his approach or answers - credit must be given for the new approach in honesty and openness.
Edited:
I had a good question since posting this from an Anonymous reader. What don't I agree with? Dave made a comment about apostles -
"That is one reason why we have refrained from using the term "apostle" for those who serve as Sovereign Grace Ministries regional representatives to our churches - see, as our understanding of polity has matured, we have become cautious of conveying any type of authority to SGM leaders that no one has today - an authority that is reserved for the first generation apostles. See - authority is never in a man, it's in the Word of God".
I think it's disappointing Harvey seems again to have adopted the pragmatic approach of tailoring theology to match experience. They've become scared of potential abuses by using the term "apostles" so they have abandoned the term and the post. By refusing to use the term - SGM deprive themselves of the benefit of true biblical apostles as say - Terry Virgo would define it.
Authority may be in the Word of God - but surely the Word of God makes space for giving biblical authority to men?
9 comments:
What kind of things do you not agree with in the video Dan?
Thanks Anonymous, I've updated to show what I don't agree with.
A more positive area I definitely agree with is this quote - thoroughly appropriate among C J fans;
"A pastor is not called to be a template ... we have to be careful not to create a culture where people feel obligated to mimic their pastors or any leader in the church. In the past there has been some of that - certainly not explicitly taught by any pastors that I am aware of but has somehow been assumed".
Dave H. message is sick and is provoking me to anger. He is a stumbling block for me. He says it is a”subtle form of legalism” if you put practice over principle? Subtle??
This message is about 20 years too late. Not one mention of sin. Hes saying its not a big number of sexual abuses? Past mistakes?? That is the biggest offense of all of this crap they say. PAST MISTAKES. wrong wrong wrong. These are sins and you are not repenting.
Then you say that if we disagree with leaders, its ok? Loyal dissent? This is not the way SGM has operated at all!!! There should be a “healthy dialogue” on these things? Really? CJ has emphasized “approachability?” Well, CJ also emphasized humility and transparency, and supporting your local church… But, Where in the heck is CJ right now? GONE. He is actually practicing being UNAPPROACHABLE… lies lies lies. Yes dave H. you all have failed and it is not a subltle form of legalism. You are way off on that. It is legalism. It is SIN. Say it, just say it.
You say you want to learn how to pastor people? Then listen to the members! You are way to late Dave.
Go away. Why should we send in questions to you? We have been doing that for over 10 years and to this date, we still have not had most if not all of our questions answered.
Sorry he upset you Another Anonymous - Dave seems unable to not provoke strong reactions.
Ha ha ah yes Mr Harvey.
You know what many of us call him in our churches?
"Teflon Harvey" ... because nothing seems to stick.
Dan.
Can I ask why you are being so positive about SGM?
What do they have on you?
You always used to be far-less than a fan. What's changed?
Don,
A fair question;
The answer; absolutely nothing. I have had no contact with the SGM UK leaders since the final reconciliation meeting and my attendance at Grace Church, Bristol. No emails, no nothing.
My only link to SGM are the fact that my family go to Grace Church and my dear friends Janelle and Jesse go to Metro Life. And of course I've got to know Brent Detweiler a bit since this.
And some other contacts go to Covenant Life Church.
So I guess - my link to SGM is that people I really care about belong to the family of churches - hence my interest.
No hidden agenda. No gift cheques from C J (ha! I wish!). No nothing.
Dan,
Thank you - just wondered if you were in contact/friends with the SGM UK leaders.
I've been reading over some of your blog and am struck by your
forgiveness to people who treated you so badly and only felt the need to be reconciled when it looked advantageous to them to do it. What a testimony to your faith in Jesus!
There must be others who have been treated badly by the UK pastors but don't have any power within SGM to force a "reconciliation"?
People who have wielded their power in destructive ways and got away with it rarely act once.
So glad that you are reconciled but please remember that there are likely many others who either left hurt or hung around in hope of better treatment but never got it.
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