Terry Virgo on the Spirit-Filled Church

This is a further interview between Simon and Terry Virgo on the life of the Spirit in church. I have transcribed two outstanding short interviews on the baptism of the Holy Spirit - a key doctrine abandoned by many churches sadly these days - here and here. But the mistake that many made in the charismatic movement of the 1970's was to believe that the experience and encounter with the Holy Spirit was a personal feeling for them as individuals and did not play out in mission or church life.

Here is the interview - the video is below;

Simon Virgo: How does that affect church life when different people experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit and how would you want it to affect church life?

Terry Virgo: Well I think it is important because the church is the place where the Holy Spirit dwells. We are told in Ephesians 2 that the church is the "dwelling place of God in the Spirit".

So the church should be open to the phenomenal manifestation of the Presence of the Holy Spirit.

So for me when I was first baptised in the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the Charismatic Movement - some would say well that is a private experience. And they would use expressions like; "You now have your private prayer language" and you may want to do that somewhere but don't mess with the church!

Simon: Why weren't you satisfied with that?

Terry: Well because the Presence of the Spirit is our huge privilege and it says that the manifestation of the Spirit is for the common good. So it is for all of us together to experience the Presence of the Spirit with us! We are not meant to live in a church where the Spirit is not manifest and then go away to charismatic conferences and then come back to church where there is no manifestation of the Spirit. It is obvious that you gather to the Presence of the Holy Spirit.

Simon: That sense of experiencing the Presence of God and living in the good of that - what does that look like in church life? How would you expect to see that manifested?

Terry: I think that when we come together, we come to the certain promise - Jesus said; "I won't leave you orphans - I will come to you.

So when we come to church and begin to worship - we are looking for the awareness of the Presence of the Spirit here.

I love that song of Matt Redman's that says; "Praise is waiting for you in this place". We are beginning to praise;

And we are waiting for the phenomena of the Presence of the Spirit.

We are not coming just to sing a few songs. We are not coming just to hear preaching. We are coming to meet with Jesus - we are coming to encounter our risen Lord.

Simon: So there is an expectation of an encounter?

Terry: Absolutely! So church without the Presence of the Lord - doing church without Jesus is terribly boring! So we want the manifestation of His Presence!

Simon: I remember you saying before that church can have almost a synagogue-model to it where the synagogue was the place where the people of God gathered to the Book but you would covet rather a Temple-like model where we would not gather to the Book but rather to the Presence of God.

Terry: Absolutely and I think going back to the Psalms and the building of the Tabernacle and then the Temple - this was the privilege of God's people - that God was dwelling among them! That glory was among them - that is what it is to be God's people!

This is what makes us distinct - His Presence is with us!

Synagogues were initially built when Israel was taken into captivity. They were away from the Temple and they build synagogues around the sacred Scriptures, to retain their distinctives, to remember the teachings and the promises - of course. But NOW - we are His Temple since Jesus came - He was the Temple - and now we are the Temple of His Presence. His Presence is manifestly with us.

So we are not looking for synagogue life as you say - we are looking for Temple life where ANYTHING can happen. God is with us!

4d. Baptism into Christ and the Holy Spirit from Terry Virgo on Vimeo.

Terry Virgo on Baptism of the Holy Spirit - Part Two

This is the second video of a short interview between Terry and Simon Virgo on the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". I posted the first transcript here. The video footage of the interview is below the transcript.

The fourth value is: ‘A church whose people are baptised in water and in the Holy Spirit, and brought into a genuine life in the Spirit.’

Simon Virgo: What would you say to people who say; "Oh I got it all at conversion - there is no point in my asking for anything more than I already have". How would you respond to that objection?

Terry Virgo: Yes, I guess I read so much of Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones that I almost feel his answer coming up in my heart. "If you have got it - then where is it?!" - he used to say. To be honest it is so evident in the New Testament that the coming of the Spirit upon people was so transforming. Even Jesus Himself was anointed to do the task that He was called to do. You find an Old Testament illustration in finding Elisha saying to Elijah; "If I am going to do your ministry and continue what you've started then I must have the same power".

I feel for us if people are saying; "I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit at conversion - which is what some may say, then well - praise the Lord if they are experiencing what those guys experienced! For myself - I would say that I didn't and I was powerless! I would say in Cornelius's household - he was saved, filled with the Spirit all in the same day. No one even laid hands on him. God sovereignly did it - and it may be that some of our friends have had that. They know that the day they were saved, they were flooded with the Spirit and the Spirit was with them. That was not my experience. And it wasn't the apostle Paul's experience. It was three days later that he received the laying on of hands and he received the Spirit.

We know this happened with the Samaritan believers as well - Philip led them to Christ and then days later, the apostles came to them, laid hands on those new Christians and the Spirit came upon them.

So there is plenty of Scripture to show this as a separate experience.

Simon: I guess the disciples themselves on the Day of Pentecost - already born again and then received the Spirit?

Terry: I would tend to say that because the original disciples lived through the whole redemption process - Cross, Resurrection, Outpouring of the Spirit - it is hard to build a doctrine on people who lived through the whole thing. Some people would say that John 20; "He blew upon them" - I personally do not feel that there was any impartation then. I believe that was like a prophetic action. "When the wind comes - you will receive the Spirit". They were not transformed by it - they were still hidden away. Thomas wasn't there. I do not feel that was an event - rather a prophetic statement. It happened on the Day of Pentecost.

Simon: I guess similarly it is interesting that Jesus Himself received the Spirit at the Jordan before going into ministry.

Terry: Absolutely.

Simon: What would you say to an individual who feels uncertain as to whether they have had this experience and who is longing for it and seeking for it and is thirsty for it?

Terry: I think we should seek God. Galatians chapter 3 speaks about receiving the Spirit through faith and I think there is a faith element. We come to God to receive.

The laying on of hands is quite common in the New Testament. People received the Spirit through the laying on of hands so it shouldn't be ignored - it may well be the way.

I had people lay hands on me and have had the joy of laying hands on lots of people - it is a biblical concept. So there is faith - there is the laying on of hands. But I think ultimately one should be aware - "I have received" - because He is called the "Seal of the Spirit" and that is something recognizable. That is the whole point of a seal! If I seal something - that has got my mark on it.

We are talking about something that is not merely inward but it is manifest.

Simon: So I suppose it is important for us not to settle for less than experiencing the Spirit's Presence and zealously looking for that and looking for Him to help us.

Terry: In Galatians chapter 5 it says "Walk in the Spirit and you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh". That is an amazing promise! Often people talk about the "battle of the flesh and the Spirit" - oh it is so difficult! That is a direct promise! Walk in the Spirit and you WON'T fulfill the lusts of the flesh - that is a solemn promise. So to be full of the Spirit - Ephesians 5; "Be filled with the Spirit, singing psalms, hymns". There is an invitation to be continually filled and then the outworking of it as you go through Ephesians 5 there is great moral content; how to live your life, marriage, children and so on.

The Spirit-filled life has all kinds of outworkings.

4c. Baptism into Christ and the Holy Spirit from Terry Virgo on Vimeo.

Terry Virgo on Baptism of the Holy Spirit

For those followers of Terry Virgo's blog, they will know that he has systematically been publishing short interviews on "Foundations" - being interviewed by his son Simon. These interviews are all worth listening to but this one particularly interested me.

Here's the video - "A church whose people are baptised in water and in the Holy Spirit, and brought into a genuine life in the Spirit" - and I typed up the transcript below;

Simon: Baptism can be controversial and another baptism that can be controversial would be baptism in the Holy Spirit. Your Christian experience was changed when you experienced baptism in the Holy Spirit. Would you say that's true?

Terry: Yes, very much so. I was saved on the back of a Billy Graham crusade to the UK and what was conventional in terms of responding to the gospel. A number of years later my own pastor preached through the life story of Peter and he denied the Lord to a little girl saying; "No I'm not with Him" - so obviously he lacked courage. Then obviously having been filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost he was transformed. He was bold and fearless in preaching the gospel. I knew where I stood. I was forever denying Christ. I never take opportunities to witness even when they are put on the plate! I felt very wretched about that and when I saw that Peter was transformed when the Spirit came upon him!

So I got very stirred up about that. I got confused when reading Dr Martyn Ll0yd-Jones who said that receiving the Spirit was different to conversion - and then I read Dr John Stott who said that baptism in the Spirit WAS conversion. I thought; well I honour both these men massively and if they disagree who am I to come up with the answer? So for a while I thought I just can't work this out - it's too complicated. Then to be honest I became very desperate about my lack of courage. I wanted to be a witness and Jesus said; "You will be witnesses". I thought; "I cannot witness".

Then I met a guy who was a friend of a common friend and he was a Pentecostal. But to be honest he was so out-going and if we ever had lunch together in London where we worked, he would always give someone a tract and speak to them. I thought; "Oh this guy is fearless and bold!". I said; "What is it?!". He said; "Oh I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit". That was back in 1962 when the Charismatic Movement was about to break out. I guess I was in at the beginning and I went to him and said; "I need what you've got - please". I recall it all came home for me when I was on Brighton sea-front hearing some old ladies with creaky old voices trying to preach and it was terrible! They were having things thrown at them and I thought; "God this is awful - why is this so awful?". And I felt God say to me;

"I called young men. Are you going to do it?".

And I thought; "Never, never can I do this". So I thought; "I have got to get this". The next Sunday I went to this friend's church and they laid hands on me and I received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and came into a whole new dimension of the awareness of God's Presence and within a few weeks I had the privilege of laying hands on many of the young people at the Baptist church I used to attend with not only the permission but the encouragement of my Baptist pastor. And by the time that summer had finished I was on Brighton sea front standing on a box and I was preaching the gospel and I would never have thought that was possible for me.