Although the Newfrontiers Europe Conference may have been slightly overdwarfed by the main Brighton Conference - I found the sessions and the testimonies from it absolutely awesome. There were many testimonies of signs and wonders and healing that came from the people praying for each other - not coming to a ministry. For those who don't know, Rob Rufus was sharing the ministry with David Holden.
The transcripts of Rob's two messages are now available here.
Newfrontiers Europe Conference - Session 1The other MP3 sessions are available still on this website.
Session 1: An In Between People - Henk Kersten
Session 2: Mixing It With Faith - David Holden
Session 4: Moving Into More Faith - David Holden
I should point out that all the sessions are interpreted so it does make the listening process slightly disjointed! However the theme of "faith" that came through both Dave Holden's and Rob's messages is well worth listening to. It's a message that must be heard.
12 comments:
Dan,I hope I'm wrong about Dave Holden.I'll describe my feelings more accurately. I felt the "preciousness" of the futures of all the people attending the Conference, and their destinies in God in shaping Europe for God, and I felt accutely embarrassed that England were sending Dave Holden as a Divine representative into Europe. He was ministering to people like the Dutch pastor, who seemed to have more of the dealings of God in his little finger than Dave had. And literally the last time I felt that embarrassed was listening to Tony Morton, what was only 40 months ago, before his troubles became public. One of my former pastors said about me in the early 80s, what you say is great, but you need more Word in your life. I couldn't know that he was himself going to be one of my "dealings"....but this is all to form more of Christ within us.
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Wikipedia:
To blame is to hold another person or group responsible for perceived faults real, imagined, or merely invented for pejorative purposes. Blame is an act of censure, reproach, and often outright condemnation. Blame is used to place responsibility and accountability for faults on the blamed person or group.
This is the interesting question of Julie's post.
The world blame God for everything and curse Him frequently.
Blame is ascribed to someone as being first cause of a problem. In this way we cannot blame the All good God. Nor as Peter Stott was explaining 2 weeks ago, can we forgive God. God literally has nothing that we can forgive Him of.
And the Devil, who perpetrates such terrible manifestations of evil, as first cause, never repents, so cannot be forgiven either.
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But the lovely thing that Julie's post throws up is that God chose to take the blame off us and put it on Himself in the Person of His Son. He became the snake in the wilderness raised up so that we may look upon it and be set free.
The blameless One took our blame.
Whether we can legitimately use the the first cause use of the verb"blame".... Julie is inventing another use of the verb to mean,
One who in His grace, takes our first cause blame as His.
Makes a great eyegrabbing blog title though.
Interesting point Chris. I must confess my only contact with Dave Holden has been at significant conferences such as Brighton. The last time he spoke at Brighton (2006) he spoke on the Holy Spirit and the anointing and it WAS incredible. The other key sermon I remember of his, was about 2004 when he spoke on Ephesians 4 Ministries and made one of the best points about apostles that I've ever heard;
"Apostles are about imparting rather than administration".
So in terms of a public speaker, he's one of my favourites. But admittedly all I have experienced is his public speaking. He's never laid hands on me, so I don't know if he can live upto his name and impart the Spirit and I haven't been in one of the churches he fathers.
Did you make that comment purely on what you heard from the Europe sessions or do you have prior experience of Dave? It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has got experience of his anointing and impartation.
Hi Chris, why didn't you put that comment over on my blog post hehe? I think you're right that we should be careful in our understanding of 'blaming Jesus' but essentially that's what God the Father did, and if we don't agree in faith then we will not receive the benefit of his sacrifice. Jesus took our blame, but there are many believers not enjoying the blessings that that implies because they feel they are still to carry their own blame.
I must admit I struggle with these kind of concept phrases because of the risk of confusion. Do you all remember the C J Mahaney-caused "Father killed Jesus" controversy (mainly discussed on Adrian Warnock's blog)? At the time I vehemently disagreed with it, mainly due to the passage where Jesus Christ Himself said; "No one takes My life from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord".
So I must admit when I read the title of Julie's blog, I thought "oh no - here we go again!" but then read the post and of course totally agreed with it.
Pete Day and I are reading a book that is really un-earthing the real consequences of believing in the total and absolute work of the Cross. This book makes Romans 8:1 conditional on obedience and speaks of judgement after death that believers will face if we sin. It's been a useful book to really think through the work of the Cross.
And I have to say that I am beginning to understand how strongly Rob is preaching the true Cross here. There are loads of people out there who present a "Cross-centred life" but then suggest that there are some sins mainly future that will be beyond the blood of Jesus Christ (thats the implications of such arguments to me).
We've got to really think through the doctrines we believe. If we do believe in the penal substitution of Jesus Christ, then let's REALLY believe it!
hehe, I got you worried! Seriously though, if I ever write/say anything that you are concerned with in the slightest I want to know! One of the greatest parts of living in grace is the ease with which I'm able to face up to the possibility that I'm wrong and I have a real desire to know God's truth, not just save face or feel smart.
Dan, whatever the real outcome of what are after all feelings regarding Dave, I guess what would really bless him is that we actually mixed with faith the things we hear God saying, and saw these things come into being. SUBJECT CLOSED.
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Julie, I'm sorry ...you're right. I should have put those words on your comments section.I was not trying to be sneaky...as I pretty well regard Dan's site as a common room.Don't know what he feels about that.It's a bit cheeky.
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Dan,without having read the book you and Pete are reading, it is a bit difficult to comment.
These things seem true however.
Everything becomes real to us as we believe in our heart, confess with our mouths, and act on the promises. Romans 8:1 requires some sort of obedience of faith...not just a question of avoiding sins, but that we act on what God is saying to us personally as His calling for us. Abraham believed and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.Interestingly in the same way as we "fluff the fact that we are now living from Another Life", Abraham sold his promise down the river, by declaring that his wife...the very bearer of the Promise to be,was his sister...he did this out of fear...twice in Genesis 12 and amazingly enough, just before he received his promise in Genesis 20.
Yet God saw something in Abraham's heart, and did not count these things against him. This should come as amazing encouragement to us as we walk his road.
Although it is possible from day one to be walking in a form of Romans 8:1...indeed if we are continually making ourselves available by faith to moving in the "Melchizedek" order, to moving according to the Now Jesus, who is giving His orders from heaven...then I believe Romans 8:1 living can be a continuous reality for us. But as you know, I still believe there is a process going on as well to move us from childhood to teenage to Fatherhood in the Spirit, whereby God is about fixing us in a more permanent form of reality concerning his promises. And that too for the whole Body of Christ as well.
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What I wanted to mention today, was that just as there are Kadesh- Barnea moments in history...opportunities to seize what God is saying and go with it, just as real are the blocked doors when we refuse to obey God.
I have been reading your background in the biography of Mark Heath. I find it so puzzling what happened in Dunstable. It seemed to happen in 2 stages. First there was a withdrawal by Stanley Jebb.Then later a further drawing back when he himself retired.
There is a great mystery here to do with the importance of a leader in the purposes of God. You could say...well it is up to the congregation to listen to God for themselves. Whilst that is true, in practise there is an incredible truth that a leader can literally be a block to tens, or hundreds or thousands by being an impediment to training people in the Spirit. Because the fact seems to be that Dunstable are not particularly in the running in our nation. And yet think of the input they received personally from Ern.How many elsewhere in the Body would have loved to receive that personal attention.
In Emsworth, whilst other house churches were floundering around in Britain, wondering what to do with the Bible Week teachings, we had direct input from Ed Miller, who could teach us from experience the ways of God, and how you open up closed nations.We had the vision of the Body of Christ imparted in the Spirit by Jorge Pradas. Yet the same year that I was chucked out, the girl that led Bono to the Lord, came down from london and gave a Word about Emsworth being a bowl of fruit going rotten. Within 2 years, people had died in the main pastor's family, he had been all but ousted, the church cut itself off from Jorge as well, many marriages among my age group in Bible house failed simultaneously, people backed off from the intensive nature of the Bible House training model, going back to a more traditional Bible training model...less intensive, and less deliverance orientated.
Things ebbed really until the 1994 Toronto outbreak.
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Here are a couple more historical examples. In the early 70s there was a triumvirate of 3 churches in our area of Bucks and Herts, where the 3 leaders were encouraging each other in the ways of the Baptism in the Spirit: they were Our Amersham Old Town baptist Church, Chorleywood Anglican, GoldHill baptist Church with David Pawson.
In 1973, our pastor Eric Chambers was led to anoint 4 or 5 leaders as elders in his absence as he visited other places. One lady in the congregation gave such a bad report on his return, all the elders were scrapped...and in truth to this day...for all its change of name to King's Church..it remains pretty much a warmed up Baptist Church with one main Baptist type teacher/pastor. Yet Chorleywood, now with Mark Stibbe has been behind various national initiatives with HTB Brompton :John Wimber, Shekinah (touring with a young Benny Hinn), Alpha Courses, New Wine Conferences,Soul Survivor, Toronto wave...right up to the present move in Florida.
Amersham should have been just the same. In 1976 I conducted a test on the then pastor. I lent him a copy of Ern Baxter's 1975 Thy Kingdom Come tape. His subdued response was to me like a snapshot moment in the Spirit, when I saw clearly that the sort of Christianity he was in, had little to do with my attempts to remain with the "Melchizedek glory cloud". As messy as my life was, yet I knew even then that my heart direction was for the Kingdom of God, not simply a warmed up Baptist Church.I just didn't know much about how the Kingdom worked. Actually,if Terry Virgo was honest, apart from getting people baptised in the Spirit, praying and reading their Bibles, he did not know a lot more either.
The second historical event I want to mention was around 1979. Some of you remember that there were a notable group of London leaders: Gerald Coates, John Noble, Maurice Smith, George Tarleton etc etc. All of these were quite significant voices into England at the time. Well John Noble paid a visit to a 3rd Level Conference outside Southampton at a place called Fisher's Pond, Colden Common. This was also a Kadesh Barnea moment for England. England could have been into the 3rd level by now. Had John grabbed the message and run with it, his leadership input into the nation would have been a major factor in moving us on 30 years ahead of time.
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That's what I mean by the mystery of leadership. It is frightening what has had to happen in our collective experiences, just because the opportunities that God gave all those years ago were not acted upon. Such simple decisions, seemingly small and nationally insignificant...first the abolition of elders in Amersham...the other one a simple visit to a conference outside Southampton.... and here we are 30 years later....to some extent robbed of what God would have wished to achieve by now....yet , like the Bible we stand poised waiting for the doors to open again, as it was 40 years later for the Israelites.
Chris, nothing at all to be sorry for! I certainly wasn't trying to scold you in any way. I just wanted you to feel free to voice your thoughts about anything I write on my blog.
This must be the all time most stinging comment which was left on Scott's site. It is probably worth putting up on a main page in a corner as a constant reminder to only say what needs saying.
Anonymous said...
you guys have far too much time on your hands! Bloggers are complete idiots. They need to spend more time looking for jobs so that they can move out of their mums house and stop wearing star wars pyjamas. Timewasters!
3:15 PM
As some of you may have noticed, I wrote a response to Anonymous's comment that Chris posted, and was very robust in my views and opinions on him and all anonymous commentators. But I wrote some stuff that I didn't need to.
However I was at the gym and was listening to one of Rob's latest sermons and Rob was addressing the question as to whether we are prepared to sacrifice anything to get His Presence. I suddenly heard the Holy Spirit audibly inside me ask if I would be willing to delete that comment.
The Holy Spirit wasn't saying that what I wrote was a lie. He was just asking if I was willing to delete it. So I did! I can't match up (yet) to Rob's testimony that he experiences the manifest Presence of God every day - but I am jealous for it. And the Holy Spirit certainly doesn't speak as audibly as that regularly but I'm jealous for that too.
So I want to apologise for anyone who saw what I wrote. Particularly to anonymous if he saw it, as my rather scornful comments were directed at him. Let me be clear - it was deleted, just because the Holy Spirit asked if I would be willing to!
How do you get on with Roy Field Dan?
Apparently last night was his 3rd preach. I have seen 2 and I love his stuff. I commented previously on this blog.
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Thing is, he's got the grace message, the supernatural, the coming into the Presence that Rob preaches but he also has the reverse coin stuff as well that I believe is also what scripture teaches.
Not taking salvation lightly...the message behind Hebrews.
If Jesus Himself was heard for His crying
and travailing on Earth, then you can be sure we ought to be following His path.
Last night was on those of us who move in signs and wonders being told in heaven...yes, but I never knew you...depart from Me.
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Do you remember me commenting a few months ago about the inner turmoil I went through in 1974, when I'd just read a lot of Maurice Smith's material on grace...and in fact I was having loads of input from all the London leaders ...Gerald Coates, George Tarleton,David Mansell. And it was all grace, freedom,etc etc.
But simultaneous to this Amersham Church had a visit from Richard Wurmbrandt fresh out of Communist jail, then that summer I went to pick up as much as I could from the Sisters of Mary in Darmstadt and Mother Basilea Schlink. They were a Lutheran setup. The fruit and goldfish were huge, as God literally blessed the fruit of their ground as they believed on the promises of scripture. If any of them fell out, quite often their machinery would breakdown, or they would get plagues of mites or something.As they repented, the blessings would flow again. They have a garden of Remembrance, which marks the stations of the Cross, which at one levl you would think...flippin 'eck, what would Gerald Coates be saying about this? But on the other hand as you meditated in real terms on what the gospel could cost and did cost Jesus, you found a more sober evaluation of the days ahead forming. How much was this preparing me for the days when I would be chucked out for faithfully giving what I believe was a Word of God, and enduring a few years of all my previous friends, not only not talking to me, but in most instances being told to literally not even look at me if they saw me.
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So fasten your seatbelts, this is what I now believe concerning the Word of God. This is what I wrote on Lydia Joy's site...but it got snaffled because of a bad internet connection. So let's have another go.
This is what I saw last September concerning the true nature of the Word. 'Fraid Sheila it's another of those science things!!!
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I saw a chemistry lab with a bench and a metal orb. The orb was motionless and flat on the bench. Around the orb were a number of poles with electro magnets on them, all laid out in circular fashion, like floodlights around a football pitch.
OK so far?
Well imagine God saying to us as believers..."You think that the orb is the Word, and you have the Word because you have a lifeless orb sitting in front of you on a bench."
"Well, switch on the electricity and see the orb rise, suspended in mid-air between all these opposing poles. I tell you, that is the Word. It is My Presence suspended between all the seemingly opposing truths in the Bible. I come and dwell in the space between all these truths. I am like the Glory Cloud suspended without human involvement above the Mercy Seat between the Cherubim in the Most Holy Place. This is My Presence surrounded on the one side by the Truth that my salvation shall never fail, none shall pluck you out of my hand, and on the other side, by Hebrews 2"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?"
But My Presence, My Life is described perfectly by all these things. It is not that you have to work harder at producing something...You have to believe all these things are the nature of My Life within you...even if you cannot understand how with your minds.Even if to your own understandings there seem to be such contradictions.
People in previous movements have camped around one or two poles and lost my Presence. I only linger in a place where my whole Word for you is honoured."
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Last night, where you had spontaneous laughter and great release of praise, followed by a very sober Word from Roy Field was I believe representative of all this.
I'm a bit fascinated by you and Sheila on this last statement.
It throws up things like....
when Smith Wigglesworth prophesied that the next move would marry The Word and the Spirit...what was going on in the 40s and 50s?
Would your take with Oral Roberts etc be that it was missing expository teaching?
My take is that earlier moves only concerned themselves with the 1st 2 levels of knowing Christ...Forgiveness by the Blood of Jesus, being born again, and then moving into the 2nd level action stage of knowing you are Victors in Christ, casting out demons, healing, being baptized in the Spirit, (I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.) Actually, because of the way things were until quite recently, there were only 2 church models in evangelicalism. One was purely expository, the other contained baptism in the Spirit as well....but I think because of the kudos "knowing things" brings, I think it would be true to say whichever church type has always held great store on a certain quotient of teaching. Obviously some teaching was liberating, and some was extra-Biblical containing reasons why the spiritual gifts have now ceased. Perhaps in the last 3 decades of new churches, leaders have been so concerned with re-evaluating how churches should be run, and with emphasis on worship and the spiritual gifts, that huge chunks of what you had in Dunstable, and what guys like Mark Heath,Dave Bish and Adrian Warnock value, have been missed out.
I find myself intrigued by all this. Here are some Biblical parameters.
Jesus laid all-knowing aside as part of laying aside His Divinity and grew as a man in the knowledge of God and the Word presumably through the weekly Synagogue gatherings. We are not told much at all. We know Paul had the most amazing access to the Word going through some of the best training that was available at the time….but ended up consigning the people of the Way to their deaths.
We know that one of the effects of the New Covenant as worked by the Holy Spirit
Is that “we shall all know Him from the least to the greatest” that we shall not have the same need as before to say to one another “Know the Lord”.
And we know that phrase I am always quoting from Jesus in John7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” Which throws up a fresh and different correlation of how we can get accelerated downloads of learning, the moment we flick switches inside of us to simply say to God “ I give up fighting, God just have Your way in my life.”
But there are also equally valid scriptures that say “Study to show yourelf approved as God’s workmen”.
Jesus own teaching worked at 3 levels. Introducing complete outsiders. Feeding the more dedicated, and transplanting His own Life by the Word into 12 most dedicated followers. But like the Florida move, His teaching was very “ as and when.” And a lot of His most significant revelation was said giving light on actual Feasts as they all went through the cycle of Feasts every year. I just wonder to myself , I guess, how you and Sheila would have got on with Jesus, and whether He would have made the grade for you. What do you think?
Please don't misunderstand me that I am drawing "grades" in that expository ministry is best, and exhortative/prophetic teaching is secondary and "make-do". I used to think that admittedly and would proudly judge anyone who didn't match upto Stanley Jebb's theological impartation.
But I guess I've been freed somewhat from that judgemental view by understanding that each and everyone of the Ephesians 4 Ministries are for today - and each will bring a different form of teaching to the Body of Christ. Different but each as valuable as the other.
To my mind it would go something like this;
Apostles will bring fatherly correction, global vision, impartation of the Holy Spirit.
Prophets will bring a singular message that they feel is the Father's word to the Church at that particular time.
Evangelists will be motivated by a heart to see the lost gloriously saved, and the Body of Christ motivated to go out and complete the Great Commission.
Pastors will be concerned with the souls of their local flock and each sermon/message will be geared towards seeing their local flock come to maturity.
Teachers will be gifted to look at/examine and see the truths bustling to come out of the Word of God and will be singularly gifted to expound.
Now I don't and can't pigeon-hole them because there is a lot of overlap between the Ephesians 4 Ministries and that will come out in their preaching. For example;
Todd Bentley seems to be a prophet/evangelist and his messages at Lakeland reflect that - his heart is to see the nations covered with the glory of God and he has a prophetic word from the Father to do that.
Terry Virgo is an apostle/teacher and while he is gifted at unpacking portions of Scripture, his father's heart of correction and global vision often shines through.
Does that make sense? The point I was trying to make was that I grew up in a local church context that didn't really believe in the true power of the unleashed Ephesians 4 Ministries and it was a very typical independent evangelical church with no heart for being a family of churches or a movement. So the majority of teaching was of course expository - with a touch of pastoral teaching when Stanley Jebb's assistants or elders preached.
What I am trying to say is that since I have seen the restoration of Ephesians 4 Ministries, it makes it much easier to look at itinerant men such as Todd, Roy Fields, Bob Jones, Bobby Connors, and so on and notice the Ephesians 4 characteristics shining through and think; "Ah yes - that's their gifting - thats why they are teaching as they are - and here's what I can appreciate".
Where I do struggle I guess, is listening to other local pastors preaching to congregations I am not a part of - such as my parents SGM church - and obviously one has to remember the context to which they are preaching, and the external influences as to why they are preaching what they are preaching and understanding where a church such as my parents church is moving, or not.
Does that make it a bit clearer? Hope so!
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