Leadership Skills According to the Iron Lady

I originally intended to come back from the cinema 2 days ago and write a post reflecting on leadership skills in the church based on the awesome film; "Iron Lady". However my apartment was broken into and we had some very valuable things robbed including my iPad - so that distracted me somewhat! Then I woke up yesterday ready for a long day at work and was in the wrong place to read Mark Driscoll's rather unfortunate assessment of preaching and teaching in the United Kingdom.

I was thinking about his comments at work and wondering if I was overly harsh - but I think not. Many excuse Driscoll on "his age" or "social situation" - but I do think that leadership demands an element of responsibility. Unless Driscoll is extraordinarily naive or foolish - he will be aware of his fan-base across the world, so therefore must be aware (thanks to social networking) of the impact that a throw-away comment such as he allegedly made, would have.

My philosophy is still simple. As the many brilliant consultant surgeons and physicians in healthcare quite rightly take a large salary for their responsibility of the patients under their care - so "mega-church pastors" who take large salaries as well as book royalties (such as Driscoll, C J Mahaney or even John Piper) must also take responsibility for the impact of their words. In a sense - their words can damage even more than the doctors I encounter because the words of church leaders can damage spiritually as well as physically.

But onto "the Iron Lady".

I have always been a fan of Margaret Thatcher since I was young (as the photo taken by my friend Mark Heath demonstrates! Check out the postcard of Thatcher in my office in the bottom right hand corner) - so I was eager to see how this film depicted her. I greatly enjoyed the film but found it sobering too. Whatever one may feel about Thatcher's methods - you cannot deny her commitment and determination to see what she believed right brought about. Two scenes particularly brought me out in goosebumps;

1. The moment when Thatcher had to decide whether or not to take aggressive action against the Argentine battleship that was circling the Falkland Islands at the beginning of the war. Whether or not this was the way it happened - the film has it visually grippingly depicted! Thatcher is surrounded on one side by her military commanders who have told her what can be accomplished if she wishes. On the other - her civil servant advisers who continually advise "caution" and "negotiation". The viewer can see Thatcher's manicured nail tapping on the table and you hear the monumental lines; "Sink it". What is further gripping is that you see her tears and agony at the impact of her action - the British lives lost as a result.

2. The other was the moment when Michael Hestletine's betrayal (in Thatcher's view) became real to her, and she realised she would have to leave power. She said in the film; "But I am Prime Minister!". It made me realise that any leader - whether in church, or in state - are still human beings with real emotions, vulnerabilities and can be hurt. It was this moment that brought tears to my eyes for what I imagine C J Mahaney must be going through at this time. I have made no secret of my dislike of his methods and decisions - but I realised in the cinema, what utter hurt Mahaney must feel in his mind - at the way that certain leaders have "turned on him". Thatcher used to lead the United Kingdom. Mahaney used to lead SGM. Both human.

However:

The one concerning thing I noticed was the very similar tactics used by both Thatcher and her politicians, and much of "celebrity" church leadership I see today. I'm not quite sure of the difference anymore - other than one leader leads a country, another leads a church (or group of churches). Forgive me for sounding dated - but I think what is missing from much of church leadership that is in the public eye is "the anointing". I still remain very committed to Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones' description of the "sacred unction" that is needed (and missing) from so much of preaching.

Don't get me wrong - I love social networking, Twitter, the opportunities that the internet brings to spread the word of the gospel far and wide. But I still am not persuaded that these "modern inventions" (as the Doctor would call them!) are necessary to bring about a revival of spiritual power that we so desperately need. I think it's great the way that Mark Driscoll in Seattle, Nathan Smith and Pete Bowley in Bristol (in my opinion one of the best churches in the UK using social networking - alongside CCK in Brighton) and others particularly have really jumped on board and are using Twitter and the internet to spread the word that church is available and where they are! But I do hope that Mark Driscoll (I know the Bristol leaders wouldn't) become dependent on his flashy back screen while he preaches to think that is essential to bring in the crowds.

This is why Terry Virgo's ministry (alongside others such as Rob Rufus) means so much to me. You can still sense the anointing on him when he preaches - and surely this is the example to seek to emulate. Not investing tithes in mediation fees or new technology for your church.

A quote from Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones to close;

“When the Holy Spirit comes in revival there is a great anointing, and it shows itself in many ways. You read of men who had believed the truth, and who were preaching faithfully and regularly, but who were ineffective and lacking in power. Suddenly they are filled with power. They speak with boldness and with power and with great authority. That is the anointing of the Spirit . . .

But this anointing is not confined to revival. I use that simply as an illustration. Thank God it is given at other times. Any man who has ever preached should be able to testify to this. There are times when, entirely outside his own control, he is given a special authority, special power, an unction which is unusual. And there are good reasons for its bestowal. There are circumstances which he himself is not always aware of, which he only discovers afterwards. Somebody may have come to the congregation who needed a particular message or word, and the preacher, without knowledge on his part, is guided to say something which is just appropriate to that particular state and condition. There is, therefore, this special enduement of power which is called ‘the anointing’. It is something that one should seek and covet, it is something for which one should be constantly praying . . .".

(HT: Adrian Warnock - emphases mine - David Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Christian Soldier: An Exposition of Ephesians 6:10 to 20, Banner of Truth Trust, Edinburgh; Carlisle, PA, 1977, p.115)

Toilet Mouth Driscoll is at it Again

Most know I have made no pretence of my dislike for Mark Driscoll. His efforts to appear "manly" (putting down women, swearing in pulpits, wearing a Mickey Mouse T-shirt) really do less than impress me. However - I have tried to see the good in his ministry. Terry Virgo - a man I hugely respect - has had some interaction with him and I've tried to appreciate that.

But Driscoll just won't shut up and go away. Not only has he know produced a "soft-core porn" sounding book on marriage and intimacy - which I fully admit I haven't read (and don't intend to - Tim Challies fair review was enough) but apparently he has also written off most of the United Kingdom evangelical preachers!

Here;

“Let’s just say this: right now, name for me the one young, good Bible teacher that is known across Great Britain. You don’t have one – that’s the problem. There are a bunch of cowards who aren't telling the truth.”

It doesn't bother me personally. I'm not "young" or a "Bible teacher". But I wonder how the many fans that Driscoll has over here in the United Kingdom will feel about being assessed as "cowards who aren't telling the truth". I wonder about Joel Virgo at CCK who I think is a fan, or Adrian Warnock or the many other Newfrontiers preachers who got excited about Driscoll's visit to the Newfrontiers Brighton conference recently? I wonder about the SGM young excellent preachers in both Bristol and Newport who would surely fit closely theologically with him as Calvinist and Reformed? Or as Krish Kandiah (who reviewed Driscoll's comments) also notes;

"It doesn’t sound like Driscoll is rejoicing the ministry of Mike Pilavaci, Andy Croft, Jo Saxton and the impact these preachers are having on tens of thousands of young people each summer at Soul Survivor. Doesn’t sound like he’s particularly appreciative of Rico Tice coming from the other end of the theological spectrum whose course is being used by hundreds of churches. We can’t call Nicky Gumbel young anymore but I haven’t heard a lot of love coming from Mars Hill for Alpha either. Apparently he hasn’t got anything good to say about Karl Martin in Edinburgh nor Pete Greig at HTB or Ness Wilson in Loughborough".

Oh Driscoll has begun to try and retract his words already apparently (as he does quite frequently when he mouths off and then realises he has put his big size 10's in it). I was more interested in the fact that he and his wife have a degree in communications rather than his "words of context" - that accuse the Christianity Today reporter of seeking to "inflame" his more controversial aspects to his ministry.

This hasn't really helped my attempts to see the good in Mark Driscoll's ministry. I don't think we even bother wondering whether John Piper and C J Mahaney (who has far too many of his own troubles to be reigning in Driscoll) help "father" and "pastor" him anymore. I am sad to say that all I see is an arrogant chauvinist who is working the media well (through his degree in communications) to stay famous, sell books and create newspaper headlines. Maybe he's a potential candidate for next year's "Celebrity Big Brother".

However I will try not to huff off - offended for my country - but end with a fair review assessment;

"There is lots to commend about Pastor Mark’s ministry – there is an evangelistic fervour, a cultural connectedness to their praise and worship that i have not seen anywhere else and passion for church planting which I can rejoice in. But please Mr Driscoll its time not just to “Man up” but “Grace up” your brothers and sisters in the UK need less judgmentalism and more encouragement".

The Groanings of Creation?

Most of us in the United Kingdom (and friends from across the world) have been following the news over this past week with horror - watching the riots that have taken place in our nation's capital of London, my own home city of Birmingham and other cities. The police have been stretched to the hilt trying to contain and control the violence as well as bringing the criminals to justice.

I had some quite frightening personal experience of the riots on Monday and Tuesday night. I was due to be working night shifts on intensive care and was asked to help out with the hospital's Major Incident Control team. We were informed by the police that there was some talk on Twitter that the looters were planning to "hit the hospital" as it stands opposite the city's police station. So we had to put the hospital onto lockdown (literally locking all doors) and watch and wait as a couple of hundred youths milled around the hospital wrecking things.

Many of the nation's population are of the fervent opinion these are mindless criminals and deserve to behind bars. Maybe that is true - and something for the courts and the judges to decide. But watching the news, I felt a slightly different view;

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now ... For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are" - (Romans 8:19)

While watching on TV - and actually looking into the faces of these hooded young people - I felt nothing but sympathy and empathy with them. They are angry! They are frustrated! They are bored! Do they need a water cannon to beat them back (as some bloggers have suggested)? Do they need a jail sentence to further cement their anger against society?

Or is there an alternative?

To my mind and un-trained theological understanding - this verse in Romans speaks directly to the situation we are facing today here in the United Kingdom. I saw groaning and suffering in the face of these looters. If they had a preferable future to work towards, they would not be willing to throw their lives and futures away for the sake of a few iPods and laptops and trainers. They would have hope! Not in a human government but a glorious God who is out-lived and out-worked in a glorious Church. The manifest sons of God - walking in the manifest Presence of a heavenly Father who loves them. A church who regularly demonstrates the outbreaking of heaving in a time-space world through signs and wonders and miracles - healing the sick, mending the broken-hearted, reaching the poor.

The world has been waiting and it is getting tired of waiting. It sees a church that gets involved in petty squabbles. In authoritarian leaders who feel it is okay to abuse their followers. In hypocrisy. In sexual and financial misdemenours. In pride and arrogance. The world is tired of waiting and it is getting impatient! And this impatience (I think) is expressing itself through violence. British justice will lock these youths up if they find them. But will that solve the issue? Locking them away for a few months/years? They will have spent that time with fellow criminals and will emerge back into society possibly more angry and more resentful than ever before.

My heart aches for the unveiling of the sons of God. That finally these youths would see a church not to be ashamed of but to be proud of, intrigued by, broken by. One of my favourite pasttimes is to visit Soul Survivor (a youth conference in Somerset that I went to twice in my youth) and I think is doing a great work. It never fails to move me to tears to see the leadership issue a call to salvation and see hundreds of young people come forward in response! Surely we should be seeing that but more - time after time - city after city across the nation! Am I excusing their sin and misdeeds? No - but I AM stating all this was covered at the Cross of Christ and it is time the church demonstrated the glorious freedom of that.

Rob Rufus on "The Flow of the Anointing"

I did publish this transcript on the "Rob Rufus blog" but this truth is one so vitally important that I felt led to publish it here too (I think Ern Baxter would approve!). Until I heard Rob begin to teach on the anointing at Brighton 2006, I was always of the legalistic school of thought that impartation of the anointing was for the "gifted" (meaning men of God like Terry Virgo and Rob and William Branham and so on) - not plebs like myself. After hearing Rob - I see now that is actually a proud get-out clause to excuse myself from expecting great things from God through MY life!

Whatever our understanding of Mark 16, we cannot get away from the challenge the Lord Jesus left for us as the New Covenant Church;

"And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed".

Rob Rufus preached this message at the recent "Grace and Glory Conference" in Manila in the Philippines;

"Open your Bibles please to Acts chapter 19.

An apostle has a government over their life to set the church in order - to bring a grace government to liberate and work with pastors and to help pastors coming alongside them. To lay foundations for churches. The Bible says in Ephesians 2 that the church is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.

Jesus is a living Saviour, a living Lord - and the church is built on the foundation of a living Head but also on the foundation of living apostles and living prophets. It is not built on the foundation of apostles who lived and then died and prophets who lived long ago and then died. These living apostles and prophets need to get into churches and lay foundations of a living Christ and a foundation of what the church is in Christ and the foundation of grace.

This is the last session here and I was hoping to speak on the "Seven Ugly Faces of the Grace-Hating Spirit" - we will not have time to do that and I feel that is for another time. I want to talk about the transference of the anointing. I was in the faith group and Kenneth Hagin was the man that God used to bring me into encounter with the power of God in 1981. I want to talk about this because the anointing is the grace of God - the anointing carries grace and we want to speak about how the anointing is carried in your words. I want to talk about how the anointing is transferred through the laying on of hands and other ways.

When you leave here I believe God wants to spread the supernatural aroma and flavour and perfume of grace wherever you go. He wants us to see that the anointing can be transferred. The anointing is transferable, transmittable and tangible. The anointing of God is like supernatural electricity. The anointing of God is like heavenly materiality - it is real. You can feel the anointing. You can feel it on your hands and you can feel it on your face. You can feel it leaving your body and going into someone else's body.

I was in Holland just a few weeks ago and we taught on the transfer of the anointing. I said; "Any five people who are sick - I don't care how sick you are - I want to show you the transfer of the anointing and I will pray for you". So five people came out and within a minute or two three of them were completely healed. The fourth had to go for a checkup and a few weeks later we got the email saying they were healed. The fifth one I don't know about - but four were healed about them understanding how to receive the transfer of the anointing!

How many want to know how to give the anointing into people's lives after receiving it? We are all called to be competent ministers of the Spirit that gives life. When we walk in the gift of righteousness and speak about the gift of grace we should be able to back that up with the transfer of the ministry of the Spirit of life.

We should be able to give away the Spirit of life. Some years ago a man invited me to go to the United Kingdom and

preach to a big outreach in London. The network was called "Pioneer Ministries" and they were doing an amazing work with people suffering with HIV/AIDS and they were ministering to them. So they knew many many precious homosexual folk - people who were lesbians and homosexuals. I want to tell you that God loves homosexuals and lesbians the way He loves adulterers and murderers and every unsaved person. Jesus has died for the whole world! Somehow Christians have put homosexuality in a different category and said their sin is worse. I don't know - everything is bad! Under the Law everyone falls short and everyone has missed the glory of God!

The church has not been successful in reaching homosexual people or gay people. In the Western world the church has not had a good result with the gay community. Much of the church has bashed the gays and marched with big "anti-gay" slogans. That doesn't represent Jesus! I really believe Jesus walks amongst the gay people and wants to love them into the freedom of the Kingdom! So I was going to minister to hundreds and hundreds of people who hated church - hated Christianity and didn't go to church and certainly didn't trust Christians and are in the gay community.

Now I had never preached to hundreds of gay people at once - so I went to the United Kingdom and went out to the forest to pray and wait on God. I began to pray and wait on God for 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours until I got the breakthrough in prayer. Now the breakthrough came at the Cross but I was praying the victory of the Cross into this community. While I was in the forest, I felt the breakthrough of God. I had a white T-shirt, white running shorts on and was so happy when the breakthrough came and knew the victory had been released and I was running and jumping in the forest and even rolled down the hill and rolled down into a big pile of cow dung and my T-shirt was covered in cow dung but I was so happy I kept running and knew tonight there would be blessing and liberty and people saved tonight!

I heard God say to me; "Son, the anointing of blessing is all over your white T-shirt which was now the colour of green cow dung. Tonight I don't want you to preach for more than 10 minutes - I just want you to go to the meeting and wave it over the crowd and I'll do the rest". So I said; "Jesus please don't ask me to do this! These are British people with stiff upper lips and won't appreciate this!". He said; "Okay Rob - don't worry but you will be preaching on your own". I said; "No Lord don't leave me on my own!". But you see - sometimes to do the miraculous we have to do the ridiculous. That is why grace liberates us to become bold and adventurous. We can step out in faith when we hear the voice of God. We do things people are too afraid to do but we do them because we are walking in the grace of God.

So that night I went to the meeting and there were 100s of people there. Someone was trying to lead them in worship but they were not interested. They were angry and mad and upset. I came out and began to speak and spoke for 10 minutes. Everything was so tight and unfriendly and hostile and terrible that I wanted to run out the meeting. I thought; "Lord I will just preach for a little longer to get their faith up". The Lord kept saying; "Son I am telling you - just wave the T-shirt over the crowd". I had the T-shirt in a plastic bag and hidden it under the pulpit and was dressed in a clean shirt and trousers. But nothing was happening - it was getting worse. So finally I said; "Ladies and gentlemen - I just want to say to you that I have been disobeying God for the last 20 minutes". As soon as I said I had been disobeying God all these unsaved people - I had their attention. I said; "The Lord told me to only speak for 10 minutes and then He told me to do .... this".

I was feeling embarrassed and nervous and felt no great faith. I pulled the T-shirt out which was green and yellow from cow dung. And I said; "The Lord told me to do ... this" and as I waved the T-shirt over the crowd the power of God was released across that room and hundreds of people fell from their chairs. Demons began to come out. People began to scream and repent. Then I said; "He told me to do THIS!" and then they went hysterical. When God told the disciples to feed the masses with fish, don't think Thomas was breaking the loaves in half and throwing them out. They were taking little crumbs! When they saw the bread and fish was not running out - then they got bolder. And I began to get bolder and bolder. Literally 100's of people - I have a video recording of this - 100's of these people without me asking them to do it, got up off the floor, fell on their knees at the front, taking their lovers rings off and throwing them onto the pulpit and repenting and calling out on God.

I was amazed! But I saw one man standing in a pin-striped suit standing by himself. Everyone was on the floor kneeling and weeping and repenting. I ran up to this very British man with the white T-shirt and went pow in his stomach! He fell and began to cry out and weep before God! I didn't realise that man worked at Buckingham Palace and was the legal advisor to the Royal Family. God got him! I wanted to give him my white T-shirt and ask him to take it and wave it over Prince Charles!

There is an anointing that flows out of grace that will radiate out of our lives and through our churches. We just have to learn how to release it and many Christians have to learn how to receive it. So let's have a look at Acts chapter 19. You remember Elisha had the double anointing of Elijah. When Elisha died in an open grave and his flesh rotted away until it was only bones left - when a dead person was dropped into his grave, the dead body touched the bones of Elisha and the dead person came to life. In the bones of Elisha there was still enough anointing resident or present in his bones enough to raise a dead person.

If the bones of a dead prophet can raise someone from the dead - how much more the anointing of Jesus Christ in the church of the living God moving in resurrection power in supernatural signs and wonders?!

Many people have misunderstood 1 Corinthians 12 and the gifts of the Spirit. They feel like some people have special gifts and other people do not have those gifts.

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers have a mantle of Christ to equip God's people to do the works Jesus did and to come to the full stature and measure of Christ.

Ephesians 4 Ministries are not superior - they just have a mantle of Christ and their job is to serve and equip the church and become full in the operation of the works that Jesus did! Every believer has the Holy Spirit inside of them! I do not have any gifts of healing. Rob Rufus does not have one gift of healing, working of miracles, gift of tongues, speaking in tongues, prophecy - I don't have any of those gifts but I have the Person inside of me who has all nine gifts of the Spirit and whenever they need to be manifested, He will manifest them inside of me. You can do the works Jesus did and greater works because you are a son and daughter of God! Life gets exciting when you are living secure on a foundation of grace - you don't have to prove your sonship with miracles or turn stones into bread to prove you are a son. You don't have to jump off a building to prove you are a son. You don't have to do anything to prove you are a son! When you are secure in acceptance grace, there is an adventure to step out and go for it.

In Matthew chapter 10 Jesus said; "Go and preach the Kingdom - raise the dead, cast out devils, heal the sick and tell them that the Kingdom of heaven is near".

So how are we going to raise the dead if we don't pray for some dead people?

Lord give me the power to raise the dead! He already has! You have to give it a go - maybe you will pray for 10 people and they don't come alive but maybe the 11th will and then a whole village will hear about the power of Jesus Christ! Sometimes you have to do the ridiculous in order to see the miraculous. How many blind people have you prayed for? How many deaf people have you prayed for? We have got to step out and just go for it! Acts chapter 19:11;

"And God did extraordinary miracles through Paul so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that touched him were taken to the sick and the illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them".

Handkerchiefs and aprons became like supercharged batteries with the anointing and carried miles to a distant city and placed on the sick and they were so full of the anointing that they would drive out demons and heal the sick. This is a New Testament practice - driving out demons and healing the sick with hankies or the laying on of hands. I want you to look at Mark chapter 5 - the famous Scripture. The doctrine of the laying on of hands (and we are not talking about Hebrews 6 - that's another story and we can't go there) but there is a New Testament ministry of the laying on of hands. Now in religious circles it is empty hands on empty heads.

If you don't give something away through the laying on of hands it is just a ceremony. It is just an empty ceremony.

When we lay hands on people there is meant to be the currents of heavenly electricity that supernaturally comes out of our hands and flows into someone or flows into a handkerchief or an apron and into someone's body and they receive it.

I want to encourage you to listen to how to receive and how to give the anointing. When Peter was walking past the Gate Beautiful and a man begged him for money he said "Silver and gold we don't have right now" but in the next chapter they will be throwing piles of money at our feet - but right now we don't have silver and gold but such as we have we give to you. "In the Name of Jesus Christ rise up and walk" and the man stood up and went leaping and praising God. Peter said; "Look at us - such as we have - we give you!". You have got to know that you are loaded with heavenly power, you have got to know that such as I have - I give to you! So you will hear about how you are forgiven and one with Christ!

You have got to let go, you have got to give in and give the power out to the world around you! "Such as I have - I give to you" - that is what Peter and John said. So we are going to release that anointing - there is going to be an anointing release as we end this conference. There is going to be an anointing that will go out and be released into people's lives here and activate people. Let's read Mark chapter 5:21;

"When Jesus had crossed over to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around Him while He was by the lake. Then one of the synagogue rulers came there seeing Jesus, he fell at His feet pleading earnestly with Him; "My little daughter is dying - please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live". So Jesus went with him. A large crowd followed and pressed around and a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for 12 years. She had been under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had. Instead of getting better she grew worse. When she heard about Jesus she came and touched His cloak. She thought; "If I can just touch His clothes I will be healed". Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

At once Jesus realised that power had gone out from Him, He turned around to the crowd and asked; "Who touched my clothes?". "You see the people crowding around you - and yet You can ask 'Who touched Me?'" His disciples asked. But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. The woman came and fell at His feet trembling with fear and told Him the whole truth. He said to her; "Daughter your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering". Now this is an amazing story here because Jesus did not walk through the crowds and say; "The Father has given Me a revelation in the crowd here somewhere there is a woman who has an issue of blood here and it is your lucky day - your name has come up in the computer of heaven and God is just in the mood to heal you today - this is your lucky day - where are you lady?" and then gave her healing.

No! That's how many people think of healing - of some kind of sovereign mysterious thing that God does when He heals you. He gets in a good mood when He heals you and we don't know why He doesn't heal anyone else! Today the reporters would have said - you see, it's not God's will to heal everybody! But Jesus healed one man and everyone else could have jumped up and said; "Hey - me too!" and He would healed everyone! Because over and over again it said - "He healed them all". Jesus healed all who came to Him - and He is the perfect will of God. He didn't pray for this woman - He didn't give her healing! He didn't lay His hands on her - it was illegal for her to be in a public place and she could have been stoned by Jairus the Temple ruler if they had known she had an issue of blood. But she had heard about Jesus and she heard that Jesus was healing everyone and she heard that power was going out of Him and healing them all. So she sneaked up behind Him and touched Him and her faith made a demand on the anointing.

Her faith pulled the power out of Jesus and went into her and she felt the power come into her and knew she was healed. What she thought was that she could sneak away and no one would know. What she didn't realise was that the anointing is so like electricity and you can know and feel - she didn't realise that Jesus would feel it leaving Him and said "Who touched Me?". Everyone was around Jesus - they were all touching Him and all touched Him! They were all curious and hoping to get healed! They all were curious for some kind of experience yet no power flowed to them but one woman touched Him and pulled the power out of Him and she was healed. What does this mean? You can have hands laid on you hoping you will be blessed - this woman was not hoping or curious - she knew if she touched Him she would be healed - she knew if she touched Him her faith would make a demand and that her faith could pull the anointing out of Jesus. You have people come and think you are the guru and they come and stand passive in the prayer lines and are closed and think you can do it.

Jesus wants to heal all and at the Cross has healed all on the planet. But when He went to His home town - He could there do no mighty works. Why? Because they didn't pull the power of God out of Him but this woman did! She pulled it with her faith! She wasn't pleading or praying - she didn't even ask for healing! She sneaked up behind Him and with her faith pulled the healing out of Him. 12 years of bleeding was finished! It amazes me that hundreds were touching Jesus and they didn't get the same result.

This is what I believe - if we as a Church begin to learn how the anointing flows and if we learn how to give the anointing and start seeing the increase in grace anointing then we more and more will see people hearing about and know that the grace message is ministers of the Spirit releasing the ministry of life through the power of the Holy Spirit. This is how the disciples in Luke 17 understood it - "Lord, teach us how to have faith - Lord give us great faith". Jesus said; "If you have faith like a mustard seed then you will speak to mulberry trees and they will be pulled up by the roots and thrown away". A mustard seed is a small little seed and Jesus was using farmer's language.

You don't need a quantity of faith - you need quality of faith.

Today I believe Jesus would say if you have faith as small as a little fuse, a little electric fuse - then you can release resurrection power and receive resurrection power when hands are laid on you.

An electric fuse is a small little thing and the metal of the fuse is chosen because it has low resistance to electricity. Electricity will not flow through lead or through wood. There are certain metals and substances that do not conduct electricity. Unbelief does not conduct the anointing or receive the anointing. Copper is a good conductor so many electric fuses are made with copper so when you switch your light on at home and the power comes from a nuclear power station or a hydro-electric station - it comes down the power lines and the power lines are the Word of God. It gets to your home, comes through the electric fuse and then lights up your house and your fridge and television. If suddenly that electric fuse has got too much resistance to the electric fuse then the fuse will short circuit and your house will be plunged into darkness and your television won't work and your fridge will die.

It would be a foolish thing to drive to the power station and say; "Hey why have you closed down? The power isn't flowing anymore!". No! The first thing you do is go and look at your electric fuse to see if it's been broken. And then you make sure that you put a new one in that has low resistance to the electrical currents of God. I believe we all have the faith of God but that we are not all operating in the faith that God has given us. There is little faith, great faith, strong faith and weak faith the Bible speaks about. I believe that as you learn to have a fuse that has no resistance to the anointing then as soon as the anointing comes to you - you just surrender. You don't resist it - you just receive it.

If you have got high resistance because you are afraid of the Presence of God or the power of God and resist and push away then your electric fuse will break down and you will short circuit the flow of God's power.

The more people that have low resistance and receive the anointing ... you see;

The anointing is Spirit-life and the power of God. You cannot understand the anointing with your head. You cannot receive the anointing with your brain. You have got to receive the anointing with your heart.

When I lay hands on someone I can tell immediately if they are in their head or in their spirit. If they are in their head, they are all analytical, all tense and all trying with their head. If someone is pulling the anointing (like this lady) from their head - then as you lay your hands on them - BOOM! They suck it out of you and the miracle happens so easily! Because their electric fuse has no resistance to the anointing. Then when they lay hands on people they just release the awesome power of God by the spirit of faith and words of faith.

I want to close now by reading another passage. I want to show you that once someone breaks through with faith - once a local church breaks through with faith or a community of churches break through then you will see that the reputation spreads and spreads. This woman was the only one who got her healing - though hundreds were touching Jesus, they got nothing from Him! But one woman got her healing because she touched Him with faith. Once people see an example - they begin to realise; "Boy I need to touch Him with faith - not hope or curiosity or desperation but a low resistance and receive that anointing and see miracles leap to a high level". So let's go to the next chapter - Mark chapter 6.

This is one chapter where a whole crowd got nothing and one woman did. Look at the difference following this woman's example. Mark 6:53; "When they had crossed over, they anchored there - as soon as they got out the boat people recognised Jesus". People recognised Jesus. People recognise your church - the priesthood of all believers in your church and it is then known as a community that is known how to release the anointing into people's lives. "They ran throughout the whole region and carried the sick on mats to wherever they heard He was. Wherever He went into villages and towns, they placed the sick in the marketplaces and begged Him to let Him touch even the edge of His cloak and ALL who touched Him were healed".

What is the difference here? Before hundreds touched Him and they didn't get healed. One touched Him and got healed and now they release power is coming out of this Man - all we have to do is touch Him with faith. Everyone who touches Him - all were healed. God wants churches to get to that reputation where if you can go into that atmosphere in worship - there is a release of the anointing of God, where hands are laid on you - it is not symbolism or screaming and shouting and nothing happens - there is a release of heaven's voltage, a release of the currents of God. The power station in heaven is more powerful than a nuclear power station - the Cross has set the power station forever on and the power lines is the Word of God. The power has been flowing ever since Jesus said "It is finished" - ever since He said that and redeemed us from sickness and disease - ever since the Day of Pentecost, the power has never had to increase or be switched on. It's always on and always flowing! Every second heaven's power station will never break down - full voltage of heaven's life and power!

The Word of God will never fail - Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever! The only difference is - you can have the nuclear power station and the power coming to your house but if your resistance is too high then you will short circuit and lose the power. Then you can say; "The power station has passed away, the power station is no longer doing miracles".

God is still doing miracles today - the power station is as flowing today as it was 2000 years ago when Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons were supercharged. The power is as strong and available as when Jesus ministered and when the apostles ministered.

The power has not decreased and there is no problem with the power line - the problem is with the faith fuse in the church because of lack of understanding! You cannot stand there passively and receive something - you have got to reach in and seize. You don't even have to ask Jesus! She just crept up behind Jesus, grabbed His garment and pulled the power out of Him.

Jesus can I have permission to get prosperity or a good wife or be blessed or have a good job? You don't need permission! Everything is yes in Christ Jesus! He has given it to you - you just need to reach in and take it because it's yours already! Sometimes you lay hands on people and they are in this grey matter called the brain trying to figure the anointing out - I can't get this into them.

When they don't receive it by impartation then you have to resort to the authority command. I have had people healed who didn't pull the anointing out of me, I have had to speak to the cancer and command it to go - it was the authority command that brought the anointing not their faith.

You can get people healed if they are in unbelief, but if people don't get enough faith. If someone has got their car in park - you can't push it forward. But even if it's in neutral you can push it forward. Even if they don't have great faith, they can receive the anointing from you. I want us to stand please and let's demonstrate the release of the anointing and go out of this conference full of the revelation of grace and righteousness. Full of the revelation we have received fullness in Christ. Let's go out of this place to give it away and release the anointing.

We - the church - want to become the garment of Jesus that the world is always trying to touch to get the anointing!

My job is not to do the ministry but release others to do the ministry. Ephesians 4 Ministries are to train you to do the ministry of Jesus otherwise the pastor goes on a big ego trip because he burns out. We had a lady come into our church 2 years ago and she was wheeled in a wheelchair and I didn't know she had been in the chair for about 20 years. I thought; "I wonder if I will have a chance to get her out the wheelchair". When I had finished preaching I started walking towards the back of the hall and saw this lady out of this chair and walking! And I saw 2 members of our church smiling because they had prayed for her and seen her come out of the wheelchair. Almost everyone in our church pray for the sick!

The Phillipines can be saved by a people living at rest in the grace of God and the acceptance - from that place of rest they can release the anointing! If you pray for someone and they are not healed yet die - don't blame yourself for killing them. They were on the way to the grave anyway! Without being hard on them you have got to say "next"! I prayed for 5 people in 1981 who were blind and saw 2 healed. I have had to pray for many people with cancer and seen many of them not healed. Now we see many healed. We have gone on TV in Australia because we saw a lady in a wheelchair with doctors saying she will never walk again. She was wheeled into our church totally paralysed. I said; "In the Name of Jesus Christ come out of her". A man's voice came out of her saying; "I'm not coming out". I laughed and said; "You are coming out - I'm from Africa and we see devils out". They are all coming out because of the Name of Jesus.

The primary ministry of an apostle is government of grace and laying foundations and the primary sign of an apostle is signs, wonders and miracles. Apostles equip the church for miracles as do evangelists!

Are all apostles? No not all are. Not all are prophets or evangelists. Their job is to equip the body of Christ but every priest can move in signs and wonders and miracles.

Terry Virgo on Baptism of the Holy Spirit

For those followers of Terry Virgo's blog, they will know that he has systematically been publishing short interviews on "Foundations" - being interviewed by his son Simon. These interviews are all worth listening to but this one particularly interested me.

Here's the video - "A church whose people are baptised in water and in the Holy Spirit, and brought into a genuine life in the Spirit" - and I typed up the transcript below;

Simon: Baptism can be controversial and another baptism that can be controversial would be baptism in the Holy Spirit. Your Christian experience was changed when you experienced baptism in the Holy Spirit. Would you say that's true?

Terry: Yes, very much so. I was saved on the back of a Billy Graham crusade to the UK and what was conventional in terms of responding to the gospel. A number of years later my own pastor preached through the life story of Peter and he denied the Lord to a little girl saying; "No I'm not with Him" - so obviously he lacked courage. Then obviously having been filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost he was transformed. He was bold and fearless in preaching the gospel. I knew where I stood. I was forever denying Christ. I never take opportunities to witness even when they are put on the plate! I felt very wretched about that and when I saw that Peter was transformed when the Spirit came upon him!

So I got very stirred up about that. I got confused when reading Dr Martyn Ll0yd-Jones who said that receiving the Spirit was different to conversion - and then I read Dr John Stott who said that baptism in the Spirit WAS conversion. I thought; well I honour both these men massively and if they disagree who am I to come up with the answer? So for a while I thought I just can't work this out - it's too complicated. Then to be honest I became very desperate about my lack of courage. I wanted to be a witness and Jesus said; "You will be witnesses". I thought; "I cannot witness".

Then I met a guy who was a friend of a common friend and he was a Pentecostal. But to be honest he was so out-going and if we ever had lunch together in London where we worked, he would always give someone a tract and speak to them. I thought; "Oh this guy is fearless and bold!". I said; "What is it?!". He said; "Oh I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit". That was back in 1962 when the Charismatic Movement was about to break out. I guess I was in at the beginning and I went to him and said; "I need what you've got - please". I recall it all came home for me when I was on Brighton sea-front hearing some old ladies with creaky old voices trying to preach and it was terrible! They were having things thrown at them and I thought; "God this is awful - why is this so awful?". And I felt God say to me;

"I called young men. Are you going to do it?".

And I thought; "Never, never can I do this". So I thought; "I have got to get this". The next Sunday I went to this friend's church and they laid hands on me and I received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and came into a whole new dimension of the awareness of God's Presence and within a few weeks I had the privilege of laying hands on many of the young people at the Baptist church I used to attend with not only the permission but the encouragement of my Baptist pastor. And by the time that summer had finished I was on Brighton sea front standing on a box and I was preaching the gospel and I would never have thought that was possible for me.

"An Honest Conversation" - EMA Assembly 2010 - Part 2

Last week (I think) I posted the first half of a Panel Discussion held at the EMA Assembly in London this year - present were Terry Virgo, Hugh Palmer, Vaughan Roberts, John Coles and Liam Goligher. The first half of the discussion focused around what the leaders DID agree on. The second half moves into what they DON'T agree and gets interesting!

Vaughan Roberts (V.R): Thank you Liam – over to you John.

John Coles (J.C): I was hoping to hear the wisdom of the other people because I am at a bit of a loss to know what the other reasons were. We obviously have so much in common here. The roots of many of us are the same – my own spiritual history is much the same as Hugh’s. We were working in Scripture Union camps together in the summer holidays at the same time – I went on one of Dick Lucas’s original reading parties and my background was with 2 curacies in conservative evangelical churches. I was appointed to be a vicar of a liberal, middle of the road church. It was in that context that I felt the way I presented the gospel at that stage didn’t actually have power to lead people to Christ.

So I was propelled into saying “God there must be more than this to get these people converted” – it was a real longing to see the lost saved that made me pray for a greater empowering of the Spirit because obviously that is what the Spirit comes for. When I began to get my eyes opened to the wider, charismatic/Pentecostal world and church and instead of seeing the church through the blinkers of my own training up to that point then I realised there was a lot more beyond my own experience up until that point. The more I learned the more I realised I have to learn now. God is bigger than any of us understand in part. We are all life-long learners and should be willing to learn from all sources that God is doing all around the world.

Take for example the Anglican church and the issues of morality and sexuality – we praise God for the orthodox church in Asia and Africa. Now some people heard me talk about what I was learning and feared that I was rejecting what I had learned before. So sometimes what we are saying – that is all that people think we are saying. Rather than we are saying – this, AND all this! So I sadly found myself being distanced from some people in friendship. I was going to other conferences to learn the new things I wanted to learn which was always on the basis of what I had already learned rather than in order to reject what I had already learned. I think by and large gatherings like this gather one group of people and gatherings at New Wine gather other groups of people learning other things at other stages in their lives. At times we have got to get together and realise what we DO have in common. This is why I think this is a very healthy thing what we are doing – and it is a real privilege for me to be here today.

V.R: I would love to hear the historical perspective of Hugh and Terry in a moment but I wonder if we could broaden it out – so far the emphasis has been on what we hold in common. And it may be that you feel it was accidental but I suspect behind it are some fairly important differences as well as other things we should never have divided on. So as you continue on the historical issue, are there big differences and if so what are they that we should never have divided on? We will start with you Hugh.

H.P: Yes – ‘historical perspective’ is one of those big words isn’t it and I am I not sure I have got a broad enough perspective for that but personally, coming just after Liam had invented rock music *laughter*, university days as John said – there were folk who thought of themselves as charismatic. Speaking in tongues was a big thing in those days but we were all involved in the same Christian union and same gospel business. At some point down the line there came a point where our differences became more important to us than the things we had in common. It may have been conscious or it may have been unconscious. I remember in my first curacy a guy coming up to me who would have been charismatic if you like and he said; “Well of course you would say that wouldn’t you because you are an evangelical”. I said; “Well you are as well aren’t you?”. He said; “No, no I’m a charismatic”.

It was the first time I had heard someone define themselves as charismatic over and above being evangelical. Before we had been evangelical and some were charismatic and others weren’t. Many of the folk when I was up in Norwich – and the trouble with these labels is that they are stereotypical and static but let me just use them as shorthand and say I mean nothing more than that. They come from Brethren backgrounds and had been well drilled in the Scriptures.

Somewhere in their mid-teens it had all gone a bit dry and the new life and fervour and passion that they had got was linked with their experience of receiving the Spirit and their theology of it. I remember as they enthusiastically gathered and talked to disciples and students what struck me was that they were living this experience on the 15 years of the bedrock of Bible teaching they had got. They were teaching the thing that had captured their hearts at the moment and I said; “You do realise what you are passing on is actually different from what you have got for that very reason – you have just taken the very top layer and removed the other”. Again I remember sitting with a charismatic friend hearing a teacher explain why baptism in the Spirit wasn’t a second experience and so on and he went through Acts and so on and I remember my friend saying; “Well I can buy all of that – but are you going to leave people sitting complacently in their chairs?”. The danger of the conservative side was that we taught the Spirit in terms of what the Spirit was not and what we shouldn’t believe and shouldn’t think. Then you end up in different streams and groups and we don’t meet each other and rub shoulders and we don’t test each other at all and now we don’t know whether we are people who don’t know each other and have some differences or whether we have different gospels that are coming out.

V.R: I would love to hear you Terry on the historical perspective as you will have as good an insight as any but I would also love to hear about where are the differences we differ on?

Terry Virgo (T.V): I think probably down through the centuries there have been differences that have driven quite hard wedges into the body of Christ. For instance the issue of Anabaptists in terms of harsh and judgemental decisions which we now look back in a very different light as the years have slipped by and I celebrate days like this and the friendships that we have come to experience certainly on this platform and reflected out across the room. Divisions do come not necessarily always through theological difference through quick reactions, quick caricaturing (if you think that you must be that – or you were seen with him the other day and he definitely thinks that).

So that runs ahead of you in quite a dangerous way. I was first invited many years ago to speak at a conference called Spring Harvest and you had to tick on a form whether you were charismatic or reformed. And I ticked “charismatic” AND “reformed”! *laughter*. And I would feel before God that I am a “conservative evangelical” – and I have never identified that. I know some people would say I am charismatic and not an evangelical. I have never identified with that and have always felt horrified by that. I would say my desire is to conserve biblical Christianity. In that sense “conservative”. Some people read “conservative” as “cautious” – what do I mean “conservative”? Do I mean English caution? Or do I mean conserving what the Bible says? So to pick up Vaughan’s last words – where do we differ and where do our differences lie, I would say I am personally trying to conserve Biblical Christianity as far as is possible in the 21st century with its downloading and jet planes.

I feel one of my greatest fears would be a doctrine of “cessationism” – that the Christianity of the Bible is different to a Christianity of today.

So for many of us – how and when we receive the Spirit would be a debate point we can spend some time on. But we all very generously want to feel we are experiencing something of God’s fullness. But are we also saying we want that to result in Biblical Christianity in the sense that there was power evident, supernatural things happened? That’s what Biblical Christianity was – are we saying we think that should be something different today? Are we saying that the sort of thing that happened through the apostles and the New Testament church continues today? Men like Stephen and Philip and the way they preached the gospel and the gospel advanced included that supernatural element or are we saying that was an empowering to get the gospel “started”? That would be held by some and they would say there are seasons. I know that for myself I feel I am a conservative evangelical – I want to conserve what I feel is in the Bible which would include what the Bible speaks of – which would include supernatural elements in the Bible.

Never seeing that in opposition to Biblical exposition, the teaching of the Word, building lives on Biblical revelation but moving on with the empowering aspects. I personally feel I guess within the UK now and its complete loss of Christian foundation we are more back to the kind of culture that Paul and the apostles invaded – where there is nothing you can draw from. When Billy Graham came to England in the 50s and 60s he could almost be like an Old Testament prophet and say “Come back to the truth that you actually know”. You can’t do that anymore and I think it is more like Paul’s day where the Gospel came not in word only but power – which I think was attesting signs. I think globally the advance of the gospel which is taking place in many other maybe southern hemisphere nations are seeing phenomenal break through.

I have just been reading in your bookshop here a book I haven’t seen before – the “Journals of John Tsung” – I have read about him before and he is an evangelist with phenomenal signs and wonders that took place through his ministry that led to vast numbers of people being converted. I would feel that is biblical Christianity and I would like to conserve it. So for me that is “conservative evangelicalism”.

V.R: You have mentioned two things and spent a bit longer on signs and wonders and we will come back to that. You have also raised the question of how and when the Holy Spirit comes. I guess going back 30 or 40 years that was the major point of division. The whole question of “baptism in the Holy Spirit” and some then changed the terminology but still expected some kind of second blessing. The inevitable question there – are there two types of Christian and that ended up being a cause of division up and down the land. Do you want to say a bit more about your own view on that Terry and then we will hear from others? Because I think clearly this has been a significant point of difference.

T.V: I think to say “two kinds of Christian” is very much oversimplifying our whole breadth of Christian experience. There may be those who have been plunged into water and there may be those who have been sprinkled. There may be those who say they have had a “sanctification experience” like Keswick used to teach – I didn’t. So all sorts of divisions and I would say to say there are two kinds of Christian is a very great oversimplification and I certainly wouldn’t live with that or accept that. To me how you receive the Spirit – and we could certainly spend a long time talking about that! – I feel personally in the New Testament there was a “coming upon” of the Spirit. The great Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones says that the teaching that says you have experienced everything at the new birth – that doctrine is the greatest reason for the quenching of the Holy Spirit over the last half a century. He felt very strongly about that. I think there is an argument for that. I feel the coming “upon” of the Holy Spirit which I see in the New Testament. For example when Jesus said to the disciples; “Wait till the Spirit comes upon you” – they knew what that meant. They had their Old Testaments – they knew of men like Gideon and men like Samson. People we have been hearing about who were suddenly “empowered”.

V.R: If I may just come in – would you see that “coming upon” as an infilling for a particular task that might happen on a number of occasions or would you expect for the unbeliever who has come to Christ and been forgiven, that there would be then a moment when the Holy Spirit comes in a significant moment unlike the extra fillings for particular tasks?

T.V: I would not feel it was for a particular task in the New Testament. No.

V.R: Thank you – Liam, any reaction on this particular issue which clearly has been a cause of difference?

L.G: And it still is! My view is that when someone is baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit and the progress we make in our Christian life is that more and more of our lives are captivated by, controlled by, empowered by and enabled by the Holy Spirit as we respond to the Word of God, as we grow in our relationship with God, as we pray. I personally think that some of us do not expect anything from God. By that I do not mean great experiences but I am saying that some of us do not expect that God will make a difference to us. Even though intellectually we do believe that the Bible can change a person, we experientially do not expect any change in ourselves.

We go to church on Sunday and we expect that the preacher will say something that will draw from us the “aha! I hadn’t seen that before!”. That is about as far as our expectation from church is concerned. That there will be a little insight into how that text will link with this. We will hear a good talk and go away feeling that the Bible was adequately taught and handled but without any expectation that anything will change in me or in the lives of unconverted people who may be there. So for me without having to create any unbiblical process – it seems to me that just living under the Word of God, if that word is (as we heard this morning from John Piper) Spirit and life then one would expect the Word of God would be changing people and that Christ would be encountering people through His Word and that we would have the expectation of things happening in our lives. I would say that a lot of signs and wonders are tied to the roles of the apostles and the early church – they were authenticating the ministry but I would expect that there are things that happen in ordinary Christians lives which are analogous to (not the same as) things you would find in Scripture and I would expect that to be happening. So the kind of things you (to John Coles) described – that happens! To me that happens quite frequently in Christians lives!

This kind of things happens! I believe in the ministry of angels – we believe in the ministry of angels! Do we think that there are things happening in our lives that are so unusual that there must have been the involvement of angels? Do we believe in the providence of God? Well the providence of God incorporates my dream life – it incorporates every area! Do I think the providence of God could stir me to have a dream that encourages me to prayer about something because there is something coming up? I would say we don’t need to use biblical categories in an unbiblical way and I hope that’s not disrespectful to those who hold a different view – I would simply expect in a living relationship with the Lord.

V.R: Thank you – we are beginning to merge these two areas. So John, any reflection on what’s called the “2nd blessing” or on the signs and wonders and then we will come to Hugh.

J.C: I think the word “expectation” is an important word here. When the Holy Spirit gives birth to a new Christian what are the possibilities for that new Christian and what do we as teachers teach are the possibilities? The possibilities are probably far beyond what any of us have yet realised – because God is able to do more than we ask, think or imagine. So the issue is am I letting the Holy Spirit lead me into all that God says and dreams and becomes possible for me? And then am I teaching others to expect more than I or we have yet experienced of Him? Or am I saying “Don’t expect”.

So when I prayed the prayer to receive Christ into my life at the age of 17 and a half – I was told; “Don’t expect to feel any different”. I imagine quite a lot of people here were told that. You didn’t therefore feel any different because you shut down that expectation.

Now project a number of years on and here am I now for the first time in my life in a charismatic meeting and there are some “words of knowledge” whereby the speaker’s team sense that God is saying there are people in the room with particular needs and they are going to pray for those people. And one of them describes a rash I have on my hand which I have just developed in the previous week between the base of the 1st finger and the thumb on my left hand – exactly where my problem was. I found myself at the front of the meeting being prayed for in front of everyone a few moments later. They didn’t tell me they were about to use me as a guinea pig because I had never been to one of these charismatic meetings before – I didn’t know that was the trap door I was about to fall through. As they began to pray for me someone in the gathering collapsed on the floor and the person praying for me stopped and immediately began to pray for this person as if they were having a heart attack. I interrupted him and said; “No they are not having a heart attack – they are just being set free”.

This person had been a student member at the church where I had done one of my curacies and had come to me during that time and had talked to me about the ministry of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and whether this was normative Christianity today. I said to them; “I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole – don’t expect that thing today, it’s not normal and it’s not necessary”. As a result that person had shut down all that side of their spiritual life for the next four years. In this meeting when they saw me – myself being set free from that lack of expectation and experience they themselves were also being set free from the chains I put around them which basically said; “Don’t expect to have this kind of New Testament Christianity”. So coming back to expectation what are we teaching as possible for 20th century Christians today?

It is not a question of “have I been filled? – did I have a great wow experience in the past that immediately lead to the use of any of the supernatural gifts (1 Cor 12)” and whether or not that was synonymous with when I was converted. The question is – whether NOW I am being filled with the Spirit so NOW I am living a life with an equal expectation of a supernatural interventionist God as they did in the New Testament?

And am I teaching that to the people I am pastoring and teaching such that – for instance – and this is where the rubber meets the road such as characteristic of charismatic or conservative evangelical church and the way we use the terms. By the way I really love Terry’s way of describing “conservative” as “conserving”! How then do we do evangelism? Do we go and knock on doors and say “Can I talk to you about Jesus?” or do we (a la Luke 10) go and knock on doors and say; “Is anyone sick so I can pray for you?”. And the consequence of the expectation I have been speaking to you about is that every Christian can do the latter and not just the former! Going and blessing a house with peace and saying “Can I pray for anyone that’s sick” – will also open the doors which leads to evangelism and ultimately a relationship with Jesus Christ.

V.R: Thank you John. Hugh?

H.P: If you don’t have the Spirit of Christ then you don’t belong to Christ Paul says. I have been confronted before by people who tell me I might be Christian but I haven’t received the Spirit and I need that before I can be properly Christian – and my answer to that is, look you can tell me I’m not a Christian but don’t tell me I am a Christian but don’t have the Spirit. I can’t be in that sort of weird no-man’s land – it doesn’t seem to be a biblical one. To say there is some kind of necessary thing I need over and above – I struggle with hugely. I must be able to say that at one end but commands like “Go on being filled with the Spirit” have no place in my mindset, my heart-set, my expectation. It seems to me the danger of the label can be that we have just got a box.

And if you have got a label then everything I have in that box is where you are, whereas it seems to me that there is much more of a spectrum – so you can take things whether it is tongues or healings. Actually expectation is an important word – so is there the expectation that all this is mandatory which I would raise huge question marks by in the New Testament. So it seems to me that those are some of the labels we have got to grapple with and it doesn’t always help us. I suspect we may have people at the far ends on some points and even we may be at the far ends on some of these points.

V.R: On one particular issue in light of what John has just said – in your evangelistic programme at All Souls, if you are not knocking on doors and offering healing are you in some ways being sub-biblical? How would you respond to some of the things John has been saying about signs and wonders? Are you missing out on something that should be normative? Because I take it that isn’t the way you do evangelism?

H.P: We may do it differently from you Vaughan! (*laughter*). I am not convinced as I read through the New Testament that remains normative. Which is not the same thing as saying I shouldn’t expect it ever. As I read on there are all kinds of illustrations around Jesus and the Gospels and the early church and certainly those signs and wonders and miracle works certainly should be seen at least as endorsing the revelation of the Apostles but as I read on in the New Testament and the letters and so on, there seems to me to be significantly less emphasis that way and as I read them less expectation that is the normative thing. I don’t find Timothy being expected to. Now we can say well it was just so obvious that he didn’t have to say it. I am not convinced by that. Nor am I trying to say that is the only expectation for those miracles in the New Testament –

But I would want an expectation level that doesn’t have it as normative and mandatory without reducing it to; “Oh it can’t and won’t happen so if I hear of a healing then there must be something manipulative about it”.

V.R: We are running out of time and I just sense we have touched on some huge issues – which was always going to happen. We are talking briefly but it may be that you are really frustrated and something hasn’t been said that you really wanted saying or a false impression has been given. Where then do we go from here – what are the on-going challenges for us? Can we work together? Can’t we? What should we be saying to one another? So it’s an opportunity really to say what you want as we draw to a close.

T.V: I think it will be when I’ve gone out of the door that is when I will think; “Oh I should have said that!”. I honestly celebrate the relational developments that have made this possible. They have not always been there. 20 years ago there was a lot of hostility which I feel is not present now. And it has been a joy to celebrate common ground – evangelically common ground speaking at conferences. This last Sunday I was speaking in Croydon and I understand there were 21 churches represented there and I did something similar in Aberdeen and Dundee – right across the city. Things like New Word Alive have been a great, great joy to stand on the same platform with people who would have different ways of doing local church and I really celebrate that. I would urge that we hear one another through and that we are sure we understood what was being said and I am sure we can be in danger of highlighting something. When we got started people made all sorts of accusatory comments which people in our ranks thought; “Why did they say that?

That’s not what we are at all!”. I think those days have gone. I thank God so much for that. I think there is a genuine appreciation and celebration of other people’s success – I genuinely believe that – we praise God for people who do church differently to us, the success they are enjoying, and the breakthroughs that they see. I think there’s a lot of borrowing from one another that is quite fascinating. Earlier on John Coles spoke about our worship songs flowing over. We have the great privilege of having Stuart Townend and Nathan Fellingham in our local church. It was great to be invited to speak at Keswick and virtually every song that came before I preached was written in my home church. I thought; “Well this is lovely!”. That we can enjoy comradeship – it’s a delight and I would encouragement that more and more – hearing one another through. Yes so maybe we do differ on our expectation of the supernatural which is the thing we just came to an end on. I think we would say we live in the “Now but not yet” – we do live in the limitations of that whole eschatological overlap that we will not see everything break through yet but our levels of expectation – yes I know I want my levels to be pushed through.

V.R: Time is running out so let’s keep it fairly prompt. Liam?

L.G: There’s a sense of which if you have been listening very carefully you will have noticed that everyone is a cessationist up to a degree. The question is of degree really. There is nothing we are saying that what is happening in our churches is actually exactly what happened in Acts. We are not seeing what happened in Acts as an actual reality. If anyone said that I think we are diminishing what is going on in Acts in terms of the quality/quantity of the signs and wonders that are going on there. Many of my charismatic friends are quick to say; “Well it’s not quite the same – we have apostles today but they are not quite the same”. My own view is that the remaining issue is the issue of revelation and continuing revelation. That is the heart of the thing and I would want to emphasise.

I would want to say that prophecy and tongues have to be taken together as revelatory things and that revelation is complete in Christ and He is the final Word and that gets into the Bible and we have it. Now having said that I believe the Holy Spirit acts along and through the Word – that He uses it in ways and with power in our lives and in ways that are not always as tied down as we would like them to be. I don’t think the unusual is normal. But I do think the unusual happens. Certain things are not normative in the church – the normal means of grace are the way God normally works. But absolutely if we believe in the sovereignty of God – we have to say that things will happen that are extraordinary. We pray for healing in our church! The elders pray for healing regularly.

V.R: I am going to have to stop you there Liam – time is very short. John and then Hugh?

J.C: Our nation needs Jesus – how do people come to faith in Jesus? He said; “Believe Me because of what I am saying but if you cannot believe Me because of what I am saying, believe Me because of the works I am doing”. How do people come to faith? Some will come to faith through their minds. Hearing, reasoning and responding. Some will come through other felt needs being met. I think that is the issue of the words being preceded by the works. From my experience when the two happen together we are seeing a wider cross-section of our community coming to Christ as a result of both those two things. What’s the implication of this? For local mission some churches may well emphasise the Word. Some may more emphasise the works and felt need evangelism. Let’s just rejoice that they are complimentary that more may come to faith in Jesus because without them – they are lost. That is what we are going for friends – that the lost may be saved. That hell may be plundered and heaven populated. People can come through the Word or through the works – they did in Jesus day and let’s make sure they are still coming. If another church emphasises the Word or the works in a way that we are not, instead of criticising let’s firstly commend and give God’s blessing on each other’s churches – and as in Oxford let’s try to work together as much as we can.

V.R: Thank you John.

"An Honest Conversation" - EMA Assembly 2010 - Part 1

I was hoping to go to the EMA Assembly in London this year with Pete Day but however our diaries did not allow it (the story of my life with conferences these days!). The topic of the Holy Spirit is one very close to my heart and to know that Terry Virgo was invited to take part in the following discussion made it a must-hear for me. John Piper and Wayne Grudem were also speakers - so I cannot wait to get onto hearing those sessions!

For now here's Part 1 of the Panel Discussion. Terry Virgo of course, Hugh Palmer - Rector of All Souls Langham Place and Liam Goligher from Duke Street Baptist Church. John Coles was the only one I was not familiar with - he is the Director of New Wine. The discussion was chaired by Vaughan Roberts from St Ebbes in Oxford.

“An Honest Conversation” – The Ministry of the Spirit in the Local Church
EMA Assembly – Terry Virgo, John Coles, Hugh Palmer and Liam Goligher.

Vaughan Roberts (V.R): Well welcome to this afternoon’s session and what we have called “An Honest Conversation”. I am grateful to my conversation partners who I will welcome in just a moment. First though a word of introduction from my own local context. As some of you will know I am a pastor in Oxford and on one end of Pembroke Street there is St Ebbes Church and at the other end of Pembroke Street there is St Aldates Church. We hold much in common and have done for many many years. I have been a member for 20 years I guess and over the years there have been occasional moments of disagreement and tension particularly I think among the student members of the congregation over the charismatic debates and discussions.

When Charlie Cleverly (who is the Rector of St Aldates) arrived about 8 years ago I went to see him and we decided we would meet regularly to pray and we included Andrew Winkfield-Digby who is the vicar of St Andrews church in the city. It is a very high powered gathering as you can imagine and on one occasion I turned up at Andrew’s house at 08:00, Charlie turned up at 08:00 at my house and Andrew turned up at 08:00 at Charlie’s house which is where we were all meant to be. We do normally manage to meet every 5 or 6 weeks or so and during that time a very warm and close friendship has built up between me and Charlie. We are brothers in Christ and we love Him. Our passion above all else is to make Him known and to see people converted. There are things we have been able to do together as we long to see the city of Oxford reached with the gospel. So Charlie has started a mission called “Love Oxford” which has been a gathering of evangelical church leaders trying to set up 1 a year a large gathering in one of the local parks where we put aside secondary differences and Christ and His Cross are preached. Thousands gather and it is a tremendous opportunity for witness to the Lord Jesus whom we all worship.

During the course of our friendship there have been other things we have chatted about that we disagree on sharply. We reckon there are some things that we cannot easily do together. We have not planted a church together. We don’t do our ministry training courses together. In Charlie’s language, he puts it; “In some things there is not sufficient spiritual DNA” and there are some things that we can do together. One of the happy things we have done together from time to time is to share a platform and have a discussion from time to time rather like this – and the fact it was so needed came home to me when people were surprised to see us not only on the same platform but to see that we were friends. In that discussion we were able to affirm things we agreed on and from the context of brotherhood and friendship – to have things that we sometimes disagreed on. We both felt that was a healthy thing to happen. What has occurred over the past few decades through different types of evangelicalism is sometimes divides through – not particularly any great difference in theology – but we just don’t know one another. We have our own conferences, our own minister’s meetings and we have found how helpful it is to meet with one another.

I hope we are going to replicate something of that this afternoon. Most of us are local church pastors and all the time I hope we will be thinking; “What is it we can do locally on the ground with other pastors from other churches that might have other views on some things we might view as secondary and other things we might view as very significant indeed. What can we do together? And what can’t we do together? Can we at least discuss and talk? So I am very grateful to my four friends for joining me this afternoon and they will be known to many of you.

• Hugh Palmer – the Rector of All Souls, Langham Place and the Chairman of New Word Alive.

• Terry Virgo who leads the Newfrontiers network of churches around this country and internationally as well.

• Liam Goligher from Duke Street in Richmond and conference speaker from all over the world as well.

• And John Coles who leads the New Wine network.

Thank you for coming. I am going to pray as we begin our discussion.

“Loving Father thank You very much for our unity with all those who are born again. Our unity with Christ and our unity with one another by the Spirit. We grieve over differences sometime and divisions and we need real discernment to know when we should be affirming unity and pushing secondary things to one side and when we should be engaging with differences that really matter and the need to be talked through. We pray we will do that this afternoon and do it in a right way and we pray this kind of thing will happen increasingly throughout this land for the glory of Your Name. Amen”.

We have had opportunities to chat some of us a few months ago and some of us just now and we all agree that that there are increasing divisions among evangelicals and an increasing breadth has emerged and certain truths need to be reaffirmed in the wake of this increasing breadth and I would be interested if I could just go along and start with you – Hugh. What are the key truths that we evangelicals need to reaffirm in the face of worrying breadth on these matters?

Hugh Palmer (H.P): I definitely include the sufficiency of the Scriptures. Unless we have come to any common mind on the Scriptures it is hard to see where we can go further. Certainly within evangelicalism there seems to be all kinds of worrying trends at least among those who want the label of evangelical. There seems to be all kinds of not looking at the Scriptures, the Person and Work of Jesus which has got to include His atonement. Some of the ideas that come around the idea of penal substitution recently within evangelical frames is something we need to talk through. Some of the uncertainty around the judgement and wrath of God – and I would think we would need to revisit areas of regeneration and repentance and at times a temptation to indulge in a repentance-free Christianity.

V.R: Thank you Hugh. Terry – do you want to pick up from there?

Terry Virgo (T.V): Okay I would endorse all that has gone before. I would say the authority of Scripture and all that is included in that. That has to be foundational and fundamental to everything we do and say beyond question. Maybe in our individualistic generation the relevance of the local church as a place where you work out your Christianity not as a loner – when we say Scripture is the final authority which we wholly endorse – the danger of every person becoming his own interpreter can be dangerous. We need to dignify the local church with its own authority so we don’t all become separate entities having our own interpretation of the authority of the Scripture. So much of Christianity in the New Testament is worked out with one another with all those “one another” verses – “correcting one another, encouraging one another” etc. I guess another thing I would perhaps mention is that I feel there needs to be a very clear foundation of grace in the churches. I think sometimes the gospel is complicated by the addition of laws and rules which sometimes really confuse our relationship with Jesus having been settled. We are accepted in Christ and we build our lives from there.

Perhaps one thing we must never drift from is the call of the local church to be involved in world evangelization. Even in our (correctly I think) talking about the things we are talking about today – we must never fail to see that there is a world for us to reach. I think that must become high on our list of priorities.

Liam Goligher (L.G): I want to endorse everything that has been said so far. *laughter*. You will hear this a lot. To clarify I think there is a fault line in British evangelicalism over the issue of the authority of Scripture. I would love to say the inerrancy of Scripture – I think there are some euphemisms like “the infallibility of Scripture” which may mean something different today to what we would understand historically of “inerrant Scripture”. The Roman Catholic church are quite clear – I read in an evangelical magazine in the last couple of months that the word “inerrant” is an American word and therefore we shouldn’t use it! The Roman Catholic Church in their 1985 catechism say that the Scriptures are without error and I would underline that. I also want to clarify salvation in terms of justification by grace alone by the imputed righteousness of Christ alone – because the idea of imputation has always been accepted and all the confessions since the Reformation would have been held by Arminians as well as Calvinists but this has been greatly undermined recently and the idea of imputed righteousness needs to be reclaimed for evangelicalism.

My only additional thing I would add is that sadly in broader evangelicalism in the last few years we have seen some of our major evangelical movements invite speakers here to this country who would not I think agree with fundamental creedal Christianity – which I would describe as catholic (with a small “c”). Basic Christianity – what C S Lewis would describe as the hallway we come into to define ourselves as Christians – that is our view of God as Trinity, the view of Christ as two natures and one Person and so on. I think there are real challenges in evangelicalism about what basic Christianity is.

John Coles (J.C): I agree. *laughter*. I wrote down three things and two of them have been said already actually – but within the context of the society in which we live. Namely regeneration and revelation. Society in which we live now believes that human beings have another aspect to their personality rather than just the mind. We need to embrace the post-modern age as a reawakening of human beings as spirit beings. The question is – what then happens, how do you benefit from what God has done for us in Christ? It is only by being born again of the Spirit and in the church – the church is losing the concept of regeneration and we need to be aware of how necessary that is in our society today given the awareness of human beings as spirit beings. Revelation – we have talked about that a bit but I think I would like to say that the question still remains for us and this is obviously the elephant in the room: Has God spoken or does God speak? I would like to say that He HAS spoken and He DOES still speak. I agree on the authority, sufficiency and inerrancy of Scripture but I have a love relationship with a God who has always spoken with human beings. So unless I am able to use that language about my relationship with Him I believe my Christianity is sub-biblical rather than fully biblical Christianity.

I want us to maintain the language of God still speaks today although the relative authority and the issues about how He speaks today is different from the written Word of God – it is not a new doctrine or a new morality – it is in personal guidance, direction, and I am alive today partly because that happened. On the morning of December 30th as we were getting up – my wife said to me, “I had a strange dream last night” and the impact and interpretation of it was that you are going to have to pray like you have never prayed in your life before. That afternoon I had a heart attack at 3pm which resulted in a cardiac arrest. In the grace of God the medics got there – but she knew that this was the moment that God had prepared her for in the dream. She and two of our children immediately engaged in prayer in a way that she had never seen previously. So that is a different category of God speaking but of equal significance for my life and future from the others.

The third thing I wrote was respect. 1. Regeneration. 2. Revelation. And 3. Respect. I look back to my days in Christian Union at university as I know many evangelicals do when there was a really vibrant unity that was able to embrace difference. We had robust conversations with Baptists – I was an Anglican paedobaptist and they believed in believer’s baptism. But we never questioned each other’s sincerity to Christ, the Bible or to mission. I was never described by my Baptists as not being “biblical”. I fear that within some of the tribes now there is an accusatory word that is used from one tribe to another – “You are not being really biblical, you are not being Scriptural”. There is an assumption that if you are being biblical then you will agree on every point of interpretation in the same way that I have interpreted that Scripture. I think we should respect each other enough to say; “I think you are being biblical – I know your heart but I just interpret those texts differently” – but actually you are equally evangelical as I am.

V.R: Anyone want to have a second bite in the light of what’s been said?

L.G: To what degree are we coming back to this later – that’s the thing?

V.R: Well – I guess for example John has mentioned “Has God spoken/does God speak” – I am quite sure we would all agree that God speaks. There would be debate I would imagine on how we would expect him to speak but I guess that may come as another issue to return to. Well let’s move on to another question. Our theme is “Spiritual Ministry” – each of you could speak for a long time on what you think that looks like in practice. But if I could limit you to a couple of minutes what would you want to major on when you think about Spirit-filled ministry? Let’s mix up the order – let’s start with Terry if we may.

Terry Virgo: I always think of the Book of Acts when they said; “Choose men who are full of the Holy Spirit to do this ministry” – it must have been very challenging because it looks like the whole church was very full of the Holy Spirit! Yet they selected men and found that Stephen was full of wisdom and full of power. I would feel that one of the marks of the early church as regards being full of the Holy Spirit was that there was a power to carry on witnessing in spite of hostility, opposition – it was perhaps their lack of courage at the Cross that so sadly seemed to disqualify Peter. For instance that made him deny that he even knew Jesus. Subsequently in the empowering of the Spirit there was a boldness. Certainly the word “boldness” is one that seemed identify believers in the early church – “Who are these unlearned fishermen – these non-trained rabbis – where did they get this boldness?”. I think boldness is something that characterised the early church when it was filled with the Holy Spirit. I think joy is another word you find characterising the Spirit-filled life. Even in the context of great opposition – Paul said to the Thessalonians; “Even in the midst of great suffering you received joy in the Holy Spirit”. It is not simply the kind of happy-clappy thing that can be dismissed as frivolous but a joy that can be found in the midst of pain. Maybe the kind of joy that Paul and Silas demonstrated in the inner prison late at night.

I would say the immediate Presence of the Spirit is huge – for me intimacy with the Presence of the Spirit – the coming of the Spirit was the recovery from exile - we are back into the Presence of the Lord.

So when on the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit fell upon them – they knew God was with them in an intimate way that surpassed anything they had known from when Jesus Himself was with them. He of course said; “I won’t leave you orphans – I will come to you”. So for Israel to be back into the Presence of the Lord in an unprecedented way – for God to be among them – accessibility – “By one Spirit we have access to the Father”. A sense of God’s nearness – His intimate Presence – both for individual in his own devotions, the corporate meeting and the sense that God is with us, we are in His Presence, we have access to Him. These to me I think would be biblically rooted truths that govern the high prize I would put on enjoying the Presence of the Holy Spirit.

V.R: Thank you – Liam?

L.G: Boldness, joy and a felt sense of the Presence of God – what the Puritans refer to I think as a “feeling-sense” of the Presence of God. I wonder if we do expect in our churches (especially at the conservative end of the spectrum) to come expecting that God is present and when His Word is spoken that God is speaking to us? I believe that the second Helvetic confession is absolutely right when it says the preaching of the Word of God is the Word of God and an expectation of immediacy when the Word is proclaimed especially in the Assembly of God’s people that there will be a living lively sense that God is there. So the boldness and evangelism and joy in our experience and relationship with God and a felt sense of God’s Presence – especially when we are together I think are vital. The effects and evidences that the Holy Spirit is present in power among us must be surely a converting ministry. We long to see a converting ministry. As you look over the evangelical scene isn’t it amazing that the Holy Spirit is quite indiscriminate about this. He gives a converting ministry to a charismatic person and to a very conservative ministry over here and He is quite indiscriminate about pouring that out on the church! But it seems the me the one thing we have lacked among us – how many can say that the Holy Spirit is present to do what we all believe whatever end of the spectrum we are on? I am convinced that where the Lord is – there will be a converting of hearts. And then I think there will be a sanctifying work in our hearts.

V.R: Thank you very much. John?

J.C: I have written down “Pleasure in God”, “personal transformation” and “power in witness”. Which seems to me to match up exactly with what you are saying. I think if you look at the difference in emphasis between charismatic churches and conservative churches – and none of us would be leading the way we are if we didn’t believe that what we were doing was Spirit-filled ministry so the consequence of our understanding of Spirit-filled ministry plays out in church life that we are leading. So probably instead of using general descriptions about what categories – we ought to look at what consequences. So what is the consequence of a charismatic, Spirit-filled view? My immediate observation would be that there is more evident singing. You go to a charismatic church and there is more singing for hours – sometimes it seems the same song! We drove the other day (probably not a good idea as it was about 18:30) through Piccadilly Circus as the whole place is buzzing with everyone going to the theatre. We drove round one corner and we heard a crowd singing. It was the Argentineans getting ready for a match last night. What do people do when they are full of joy? They sing – it is a natural human expression and emotion. It is interesting looking through some of the songs you guys are singing and seeing some of them come from the charismatic stable. We say that singing is the natural overflow of the Presence of the Spirit. We understand that pleasure in God is first not our pleasure in God but His pleasure in us. The Spirit on Jesus says; “You are My Son – I delight in You”.

Instead of the wrath of God falling on me – the pleasure of God embraces me. I am His beloved one! So my response is – oh Lord! Thank You!

And I want to express my gratitude to Him in song! I want to do that as well with my brothers and sisters because on my own I am not a particularly good singer and they help me sing and express that joy in a way above and beyond my own. So personal transformation (and that all comes from the Holy Spirit) comes in part through singing but also in part through the reading and the conformity of the Word of God thus also in part through the preaching and conformity to the Word of God. But there is another aspect – personal transformation comes through my own personal contemplation out in the quiet and beauty of the country and I can behold the beauty and glory of God. That is 2 Corinthians 3:18. As we contemplate the Lord’s glory we are transformed from one glory to another. Creation reveals His glory on the one hand and in worship we encounter His glory and Presence as well as in the Word He comes to us in His full glory. So what I am saying is that we expect to see light completely transformed. If that is not happening then we are not ministering in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I think that is common to us all so the drug addict can be delivered and set free. I am involved at the moment in a new church plant and it is a pleasure to see drug addicts coming in off the estate to getting converted in the last 3 months, of drugs, lives being changed. People are coming saying; “Who is this Jesus?”. So the Spirit changes us!

V.R: Thank you John. Hugh?

H.P: I am getting boring now saying that I agree with what is being said. But I would expect a Spirit-filled ministry to be full of Jesus. He is to be the One to whom the Spirit points and I am struck again and again how when people are filled with the Spirit in Acts how the next thing they are doing is speaking. And what they are speaking of is Jesus. The boldness comes through there – He is the content of the message and the ministry and I would expect people to be speaking of the Christ and living out the Christ – which is a phrase I know I have domesticated. There are loads of ways we have domesticated that, first of all we have horribly individualised it. Spirit is creating community. Secondly the radicalness of it all and John has touched on some of it – another one that has come across to me is the sheer generosity of those early New Testament communities which certainly humbles me and I know humbles many of our churches and would be a wonderful display if that kind of generosity was demonstrated in our communities.

V.R: Thank you very much.

Part 2 to follow!