Dr R T Kendall on "Why I endorse the Toronto Blessing"

I am grateful that Dr R T Kendall chose this moment around "Strange Fire" controversies - to share this video via his ministry link.

A bit of context: as I was growing up into life of the Spirit and the charismatic movement, I always tended to see R T Kendall as the "negative/reverse" to our then senior pastor Dr Stanley Jebb.  Both were amazing and outstanding teachers of the Word of God.  And both had the potential to hold the wonderful tension between "Word and Spirit" or reformed doctrine and charismatic experience well.  Dr Jebb sadly was put off by excess he saw and was revolted by.  R T Kendall on the other hand was at the same time opening up to the Holy Spirit and the variety of His work.  It was wonderful to travel down quite regularly to Westminster Chapel to hear R T Kendall's ministry during the dark days of cessationism in Dunstable.

So I am glad to hear again a message I am familiar with (having read it in Dr Kendall's books);

Alex Buchanan on the Song of Solomon

I am always on the hunt for positive and encouraging insights into the Song of Solomon - a favourite Book of the Bible to me. Through a conversation on Facebook I have been having today with a friend and fellow member of my home church in Dunstable, I have been drawn to Alex Buchanan's website and found a downloadable book on his insights into this great book.

Here's the introduction and statement;

"I regard the Book as a wonderful illustration of the relationship between Jesus and His Bride. Between God and Christians. It is a love story, but as we read on we will realise that, although it is romantic, it is also demanding and at times dangerous.

The themes are -

The strong love between bride and groom, i.e. the Shulammite woman and the shepherd -

His utter faithfulness and her relative faithfulness – she failed hin twice.

His jealous love, and loving anger (ch5:6).

The seduction of the world and the flesh (assurance of and trusting in our own resources)

The dangers of the unequal yoke. Supposing the woman had married the king and not the Shepherd! It would be like a Christian marrying a non- Christian contrary to what the Bibe says.
No need for inhibitions. What is wrong with speaking of sexual union in a pure context? The Bible is frank and wholesome in it’s treatment of sex. After all, God invented it!

Personally my greatest passion is to know God better than I do and to be more like Him than I am. The Song of Solomon has been a great help to me in realising my ambition. I still have a long way to go – but I am going! I hope more than anything else that this Book will help some to be more deeply in love with God, and therefore more obedient to his commandments".

I am looking forward to reading more!

Church Membership: Any Exemptions?

The SGM story continues to evolve in it's bumpy manner.

I think one of the difficulties here is that the Word of God does not lay down specific instructions for every event that the church may meet. Rather it lays down guidelines - but just as importantly the Holy Spirit has fallen upon His church and inspires, guides, empowers and prompts the servant ministries that the risen Christ has given. Word and Spirit are both needed to stave off disaster!

The SGM family (especially those at Covenant Life Church) seem to be incredibly upset by the decision that C J Mahaney made to not continue attending CLC but instead go to his friend Mark Dever's church nearby in Washington. Here's a comment from the SGM blog from an CLC member;

Jeff:

Andrew, CJ is a member of CLC, and part of the membership agreement states that you will regularly attend YOUR church. I can understand if you wanted to go to a Sunday night meeting at another church, but to leave the church you are a member of to attend another church full time is against the membership agreement. CJ is supposedly bound by the same agreement as the other members of the church. If not, please explain why. If the pastors agreed to him leaving CLC and attending another church then they should have asked for him to resign his membership at CLC. No partiality, no "unique circumstances". CJ is as accountable to Josh as I am. If he doesn't like the way Josh is handling the situation then he is free to leave and move his membership elsewhere, just as his sons have. I am really growing weary of the doublespeak coming out of SGM. Let CJ stand or fall on the system he has created over the last 30 plus years.

The "unique situation" that SGM's Director of Comms refers to is the fact that C J has made this decision by himself (although with "support" from the SGM Board). What is clear in the comments is the issue here is one of authority.

Namely - who covers C J? He is not a pastor. He is a member of CLC. Therefore technically (as Brent Detweiler has consistently argued) C J is under the authority of the Covenant Life pastors. However he does not seem to be acting as though he appreciates that authority and is responding to their guidance and advice. Does the "President and Chairman" then have any form of accountability?

Who knows the right answer - and indeed who has the clout to make C J Mahaney do what they feel is best? He doesn't seem to be a chap who responds well to correction and advice if he doesn't want to do it. I do think the issue here is consistency and justice. Namely;

If an ordinary member of an SGM church was in trouble of some sort (we all agree Mahaney is not under disciplinary action) then would they have the freedom to go to another non-SGM church for a bit if they felt like it?

All my SGM friends are very clear (and my experience matches this). If you miss one Sunday you may get away with it but if you start missing regular Sundays then you will be called to account as to your whereabouts. So if SGM members can't get away with this - then should C J?

The Treasures of the Newfrontiers Magazine

Another "change" coming to Newfrontiers is the finishing of the wonderful magazine edited by Terry Virgo. Terry gave us this rather shock announcement in his final session at "Together on a Mission" and said this would be the penultimate edition which we were given at the conference. I was saddened to hear this - I've had a deep love for the magazine which I have been carefully collecting since back in my university days.

One of the major riches of the magazine is the "Firstline" introduction as editor that Terry would write. I've read through some of my magazines and have posted some of my favourite Terry quotes below;

"The challenge remains for us to be enthusiastic in our embracing of the activity of the Holy Spirit and to be through in our commitment to Biblical truth" - Firstline, Jan-March 2007

"It is very possible to deplore the closing of church buildings and be saddened by the apparant collapse of Christianity but if we simply see it in Ern Baxter's terms, we realise that Saul's kingdom is fading fast but David's kingdom is emerging. There is a new anointing" - Firstline - Sep-Nov 2004

"One of the most important apostolic responsibilities therefore is to define who are the people of God" - Sept-Nov 2003.

"As we go on world mission, we believe we are the fulfillment of promises made to Abraham that in him all the families of the earth would be blessed (Gen 12:3) and that he was the heir of the world (Rom 4:13)" - Firstline - Sept - Dec 2005.

"The new wine demanded a new wineskin. When we came together, we had to make room for God's Presence in this exciting new way" - Firstline - April-June 2006

"Once the local church rediscovers her glorious calling, she rises to true significance. She is a dwelling place for God's Spirit. She is corporately the light of the world, a city set on a hill which cannot be hid" - Firstline - April - June 2006.

"Be sure to run (your race) with zeal and committment fixing your eyes on Jesus 'the author and perfector of faith whofor the joy set before Him endured the Cross, despising the shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" - Firstline - March-May 2005.

"Jesus was weary of His unbelieving followers. He could not be indifferent or complacent. He could not passively accomodate their failure" - Firstline - April-June 2007.

"The Cross was a form of public execution of unparalelled degradation and repulsiveness" - Firstline - Oct-Dec 2007.

Dr John Stott - A Man of God

I was saddened yet glad for him to hear that Dr John Stott went into the Presence of His Lord this morning. He was one of my greatest evangelical heroes and I was fortunate enough to have met him twice at his home church of All Souls Langham Place - I also heard him preach a number of times and his succinct wonderful exposition made a tremendous impact on my learning.

His ministry was indeed international and I am sure that his funeral will be one of the best attended celebrations seen in London! For those who haven't heard him preach, here is a video of Dr Stott preaching at Keswick a few years ago;

Together on a Mission 2011 - Day 1!

As I mentioned previously, we are attending select sessions at the "Together on a Mission" conference in Brighton this year - namely Terry Virgo's three afternoon sessions each day, the Thursday Evening Prayer Evening and Dave Holden closing the conference.

So have just come back from the Day 1 afternoon session with Terry Virgo. I am glad to know that although I haven't been to Brighton since 2007 the wonderful heavenly-adjectives like "awesome!" and "amazing!" still very much describe this conference.

Simon Brading lead worship and I was amazed at his massive growth in maturity and experience to lead us into the Presence of God. We learned two new songs which were wonderful celebrations of the Cross and glorious ascension of our Lord and also sang the wonderful short song that I first heard Michael W Smith sing; "Alleluia, for the Lord God Almighty reigns". Amazing!

Terry Virgo then came up to speak and began as is customary for him - by recommending Dave Devenish's new book; "Fathering Leaders, Motivating Mission - Restoring the Role of the Apostle in Today's Church". Terry said;

"Laying aside the biblical role these apostles took is a serious loss to the New Testament .. I have never seen such a through Biblical approach to apostles as David's book. We have been waiting for this book for decades!".

Terry's text was Hebrews 12:1-3 and here's what he said;

We are looking at themes God brings to us as we go into unprecedented way into world mission. I have been drawn to Hebrews 12 - R T Kendall in his excellent book said;

"Hebrews 11 would have no revelance or meaning to me at all if it were not possible to do what they did".

Then we come to chapter 12. "Now therefore". There are many turning points in the Bible (Romans 12, Ephesians 4:1). The uniqueness of our faith is that we come after what God has done. "Cloud" is a better word than "crowd". We are surrounded by voices speaking to us! Watching what they have done speaks to us. The Bible is their stories.

The Bible reveals itself in relationship - not in abstract theology.

The whole deal is stimulating faith. God wants us to be affected by them. "Witness" is "bearing witness" in the Bible - not so much watching. Not sure that the cloud of witnesses are actually physically watching us like as in an amphitheatre. They have something or Someone far better to watch than us! But through deed - they still speak.

"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down". It is worth it. It is worth trusting when we don't see the answers! Hebrews 12 is also saying; "You are not alone!". They say; "Keep going - He is faithful!". As we run this race (or contest) we must realise it isn't an 100 metre sprint - it is a marathon. This imagery of conflict is there for us! "Lay aside the weights/encumbrances/everything that hinders". Get light - get free from everything that would entangle you. He distinguishes between things that would entangle and sin.

(Galatians 5:7); "Who hindered you?". When Paul left, the legalists moved in.

Legalism stops you running in the race.

Why would you put on a heavy coat that weighs you down? But there is also a danger of a misapplication of grace. It is phenomenal freedom but we can trip over that freedom! All things are lawful but will it help you in the race? Sometimes the tragedy is - we lose the race because of grace! This is another value system and it does cost.

Fundamental things like "honour your father and mother" - from a biblical perspective this is a principle but there are other perspectives Jesus brings. "Let the dead bury their dead!". Jesus' mothers and brothers were worried He was out of His mind! He was saying; "I am in the race and nice and tidy principles have to be submitted to another truth". Does this principle entangle? This isn't sin - but things that entangle. Costly choices - Hudson Taylor fell in love with a girl before he went to China but he realised that China was not in her heart. He had to go. As we move into global mission, many will ask questions like; "Will this mean I never get married?". Things that hinder - lay them aside.

"Also the sin that can so easily entangle".

Paul does NOT write; "To the sinners". He writes; "To the saints"! You are new creation people! You are now; "in bondage to righteousness". You are completely free people! "Sinner" is NOT our identity.

But ... Paul wrote of "sin that can entangle". But he also wrote of sin that can "easily entangle". He furthermore wrote of "sin that can so easily entangle"!

The world will bombard us with it's value system - we need to find a glorious freedom by which the world was crucified to me. The wisdom of this world is foolishness to us! "Demas left me having loved the present age". This was the last reference in the Bible to him. Both guys came to the end of the race but so differently. Do not let sin reign in your mortal body!

We need apostolic doctrine to show us who we are in Christ. God BROKE the power of sin at the Cross. Lay aside Satan's accusations - his chief weapon is trying to get you despondent and depressed.

He bombards you and you either take it on board and say; "I am a wretch" or you resist the devil. "We overcome Him by the word of our testimony". Satan will constantly whisper to you; "I am a dead loss". Will you listen?

Group early photographs in the Charismatic Movement can be a sobering reminder - who has left the race.

"The sin" - which sin? Hebrews has the greatest deal to say about one sin - the sin of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12; "an evil heart of unbelief". When the Israelites came to the Promised Land they said "we are not able to go in". God was FURIOUS with them and instead allowed their children to go in.

If we will press into the nations, this is the victory that overcomes. Our faith! The book of Hebrews has to do with overcoming and inheriting our promises. Live and overcome with faith. Don't draw back! Let us believe God for Rio and Delhi! Run the race that is "marked out for you". The masters of the race have marked out a unique race of each - Moses, Elijah and Noah. We don't have to build Arks necessarily but we do have to believe God.

"God delights to deal singularly with us as though there was no one else to love". (R T Kendall).

You run the race that is marked out for you. "Run with perseverance". It is possible to slip into passive mode. Don't get passive - this word has patient expectancy about it. Be imitators of those with patience and faith! The whole Creation stands on tiptoe to see the unveiling of the sons of God. Resignation is not believing any more! Elijah sent the boy to look for the cloud 8 times. But he kept believing! "Looking (ahead) to Jesus". Don't get besotted with the things in your face - this one - the pioneer and perfecter.

Jesus was handed over and brutally crucified but He perfected faith! There are a lot of people who pioneer but do not finish a work. Jesus both perfected and pioneered faith!

Crucification was not a religious process. It was foul, it was nothing but shame. It was all of that but more for Jesus - it was loss of fellowship with the Father. God completely withdrew and He was alone. Yet He held the promise that God would raise Him up! Jesus took the curse. The curses in Deut 28 are terrifying! Yet Jesus took them all for us! "Despising the shame" - Jesus ignored the shame of the Cross as almost as though it were not worth thinking about. "For the joy set before Him! He looked ahead!".

There was something joyful behind this black day. What is the prize? He came for a glorious Bride! Millions of believers reconciled to God! He will wrap it up with a new heavens and a new earth! All will praise Him! The whole earth will be redeemed and be like the New Temple - nothing unclean! Babylon will be gone. New bodies! The devil will be in the Lake of Fire. God will know us all by names and know our story! He will dwell with us and Jesus will be enthroned - He will reign forever!

He didn't take much notice of the Cross - He was so besotted with these people He was bringing in! We are the Bride! What has He got for us?

"The greatest labour of love that ever happened was possible because of the greatest imaginable joy" (John Piper).

Let's run this race and glorify Him and be to Him a joy! We are at the end of the beginning and have barely started!

Desperate Need for Word AND Spirit

One of the reasons I had a profound respect for the "Life in the Spirit Conference" was it's unique emphasis on reformed doctrine and charismatic experience. It is a small, not so well known conference that takes place annually in the UK and has had some well known speakers such as Terry Virgo, Ern Baxter, Roy Clements and others. My senior pastor Dr Stanley Jebb used to be on the committee and was a regular speaker.

One year back in 1987 he made this profound statement - that still holds so true;

"Neither a neglect of the words He has given or a denial of the power He provides will ultimately glorify Him. We need both! Anyone (unless they are ignorant) cannot say that the reformed camp or the charismatic camp have it all".

He was speaking on; "Reformed Doctrine and Charismatic Experience" - the one message that sums up the conference, and indeed the desperate need of the hour. I am not convinced that even these many years later that we are closer to uniting Word and Spirit but so desperately need it. Fuel and fire!

Transcribing ... a Major Part of This Blog

I remember when I started this blog some years back, blogging was all the rage. Nowadays it seems to have died out a bit with only a faithful few still blogging away. I think one of the main reasons I kept mine going was that I wanted a vehicle (or two) for transcribing sermons - a practice I really enjoy and benefit from.

Why did I start transcribing?

I remember the first thing I began transcribing were interviews. I have always had a love of interviews - I feel they give insights into servants of God that you do not always get in sermons. You get more instant answers. While I am a self-confessed bibliophile (lover of books) and collect books as fast as I can and as much as I can afford for my own personal library (now several thousand books) - it always irked me that audiotapes seemed like a hidden treasure. There was so much gold discussed in some preaching and teaching tapes which unless you knew what you were listening to - could be missed. The printed word made that available.

What have I transcribed?

So my first few transcription projects were "Panel Discussions" from the Bethlehem Conference for Pastors. John Piper is renowned for gathering world-class preachers and teachers and the panel discussion was a part of the conference I was always fascinated in.

So I transcribed the 1999 conference where James M Boice, C J Mahaney and Piper discussed many issues. I then transcribed the 1991 conference where Wayne Grudem and Piper sat together discussing "Spiritual Gifts and the Sovereignty of God" and finally the 1995 conference where D A Carson was attending.

I then began to move onto transcribing Dr Ern Baxter. It was (and is) one of my major regrets that Ern never published more books than he did. I've collected and gathered all of his (now out of print) books but there is so much more of his ministry that should have been published! My first project was "Life on Wings - Interviews with Dr Ern Baxter" - a series of 4 interviews that Ern Baxter gave before his death. Mark Heath kindly published the document on his blog for me. I then transcribed "The Priestly Clothing" - a monumental series that Ern gave at our very own Anglia Bible Week in 1983.

I have recently commenced an even bigger project - transcribing (in my view) the most significant series that Ern Baxter preached at the Dales Bible Week in 1976 called "Where are we going?". It was a call to not waste the renewal and moving of the Holy Spirit but to go on and "take the land" - preach the gospel to the lost. Sadly largely ignored by many in that generation - it still has prophetic timeless truth which is why I hope it will be read and maybe even published.

When I encountered Rob Rufus at the "Together on a Mission" conference in 2006 and 2007 I knew instantly that this was a man of God who would change my life. My love for Rob's ministry came because he expressed and enunciated many of the kingdom truths that Ern Baxter did - but his passion for grace teaching meant freedom from much of the legalism I have inherited. It seemed a lethal combination! So I set up the "Rob Rufus" blog - aimed at making much of his teaching available in printed form. Rob and his son Ryan know and approve of this blog.

Transcribing - a Business?

I was interested to see Justin Taylor mention this "transcribing company" that offer this service to church pastors and teachers. It's encouraging that many local pastors can take advantage of this and ensure their ministry is not forgotten. I always used to badger a former hero of mine to write because it was my concern that teaching not written can be forgotten - sadly he never did.

I don't get paid anything for my transcripts - it's a hobby and one I really enjoy. But it's great to see it isn't just me that believes the preached word should be written down. Imagine how lost we would be if Dr Lloyd-Jones had persisted in refusing to allow his ministry to be taped and then written down! We would be without all those timeless books on Romans and Ephesians. I don't want the same to be true of Ern Baxter or Rob Rufus or Stanley Jebb.

Dead Formalism

One of the greatest tragedies of my formative years (I believe) was the elders of my home church in Dunstable relentlessly banning life and dragging us from charismatic experience - all because of fear of excess. They had seen things like the Kansas City Prophets and the Toronto Blessing and felt it was fake and excess and were determined (even to the point of erasing years of awesome ministry tapes) to ensure we were "safe".

I wish they had paid heed to this excellent quote by C H Spurgeon;

"I would rather risk the dangers of a tornado of religious excitement than see the air grow stagnant with a dead formality".

Quoted in: Terry Virgo - "The Spirit-Filled Church" - Monarch Books, Oxford (2011) - p69.

Preach the Word!

I've just come back from a fantastic day spent in the historical city of Oxford. Scott and I both had the day off and decided to do something "different". Oxford is only an hour's drive away and somewhere I've visited once or twice (once in 2001 to hear John Piper speak at St Aldates and St Ebbes churches) but never to appreciate some of it's historical features.

One amazing place I was fascinated to visit was the famous Bodleian Library. It is the main research library in Oxford, one of the oldest libraries in Europe and second in size only to the British Library (some 11 million items!). I could have spent hours there. Why do libraries thrill me so? I think it is the historical marvel that words written down up to centuries ago can still be enjoyed, read and benefited from now.

Video tapes and audiotapes may erode and the spoken words of the sermon lost (one reason why I transcribe so much). But books manage to survive!

I've spent the last couple of days reading a novel I enjoy greatly - the series of books by Christopher Paolini about the character Eragon and his dragon Sapphira. At one point Eragon (the hero of the story) is severely hampered in his battle against evil because he doesn't have a sword. He tries out many inferior swords but ends up seeking the perfect sword made by elves which he calls "Fire". That always challenges me and reminds me of many Christians and Christian churches. Ephesians speaks of the "Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God". Spirit and Word are seen as an offensive weapon in our fight!

There is much to challenge our generation. I've just been absolutely thrilled to find hidden in the archives of the Martyn Lloyd-Jones Recording Trust - two sessions that Dr Lloyd-Jones held after he had finished speaking his famous "Preaching and Preachers" lectures in the USA. No one knew that after these lectures he held two Question and Answer sessions with the students -and the recordings were SAVED! (I will of course be transcribing them).

But Dr Lloyd-Jones is in glory. Terry Virgo and Stanley Jebb are in their sixties and seventies. Rob Rufus and Greg Haslam are in their fifties. Ern Baxter is in glory. Where are the young men and women of OUR generation ready to rise up and obey the Great Commission set by the risen Lord Jesus;

"Go into the world and preach the good news to all creation!".

Will our generation put down the words God speaks through preaching that can be set down in books for generations and centuries to come (if Jesus Christ doesn't return)? I have got a few things that I feel God is challenging me with that I may share in time - exciting days!

R T Kendall Website New Look!

I am ashamed to say I don't get round the websites of some of my heroes as much as I wish I could - so I was delighted today to drop by Dr R T Kendall's website (I was checking out his view on a verse) and found it has been totally revamped with a great new look.

I have been a massive fan of R T Kendall's since around

1998 when I became aware that the minister of Westminster Chapel had made almost the reverse trip in theology and experience to my pastor Stanley Jebb. Initially closed to the Spirit, Kendall became a great champion of the Holy Spirit and he set Westminster Chapel on it's great current course in holding the tension between the Word and the Spirit. (I am aware many die-hard Reformed fans of Drs Lloyd-Jones and Campbell-Morgan would dispute and say he has 'wrecked' the Chapel ... but we agree to differ).

I was amused and embarrassed to find some letters I wrote Dr Kendall back in my student days pestering him with questions I had particularly on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic Movement - what was happening at home was worrying me and in my student radicalness I wanted answers. He was kind enough to answer many questions and send me tapes from his School of Theology.

There are some news of forthcoming books from R T Kendall including;

"God continues to enable me to write books. Two volumes of Sermon on the Mount (which I have dedicated to the memory of Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones) will be available in 2011 by Baker Book House (2012 in UK by Hodder and Stoughton). Hodder will publish The Scandal of Being a Christian in 2011. Monarch Books (UK) will publish my exposition of Isaiah 53 called Why Jesus Died.

Jack Taylor, Charles Carrin and I have written a book called Word, Spirit, Power (stating our view that the Word and Spirit need to be reunited if there is to be a demonstration of authentic power in the church) which Baker Book House will publish in 2011. Charisma House will publish my book that was supposed to be entitled ‘Pride – the Sin No One Admits To’ but which they decided to call The Power of Humility – which I find rather embarrassing. I have a lot of books left in me, not to mention a good number of potential books from unpublished preaching at Westminster Chapel for 25 years".

I wouldn't agree on all points humbly with Kendall - for example his teaching on the Sermon on the Mount - but I'm so grateful to God for him and his ministry in London. You will not find a man more longing to see God move in power in London when he ministered there - so it's great to re-visit this website.

Probably No Need for God?

I was unfortunate enough to read Kevin DeYoung's twitter from the "Gospel Coalition" on my Twitter feed and it (to put it mildly) irked me. He wrote a thought-provoking post called "It's Probably Not the Worship Style". A liberal church leader had asked his thoughts about whether his church was not growing because they had an organ - and should they upgrade their music styles. DeYoung, I think rightly, puts music style in it's place.

Guitars and drums do NOT equal charismatic worship. They also do NOT guarantee church growth (necessarily). And they do NOT guarantee the Presence of God necessarily.

So DeYoung shared some thoughts in the guise of questions that he clearly thinks WILL grow churches. Questions he calls "harder and deeper". Here they are;

"Is the gospel faithful preached?

Is the Bible taught with clarity and passion?
Are the sermons manifestly rooted in a text of Scripture?
Do the elders/pastors and deacons meet the qualifications for church office laid out in the New Testament?
Are the sacraments faithfully administered and protected?
Is church discipline practiced?
Do the elders exercise personal care over the flock?
Are there good relationships among the staff and other leaders?
Is the worship service put together thoughtfully and carried out with undistracting excellence (as much as possible).
Do the people in the congregation sing the songs with gusto or are they going through the motions?
Is a high bar set for church membership?
Are the people of the church engaged in personal ministry?
Is the congregation marked by increasing prayer and evangelism?
Do the pastors believe in the complete trustworthiness of all of Scripture?
Do they take adequate time for study and preparation?
Do they truly believe and eagerly rejoice in their church’s/denomination’s statement of faith, creeds, and confessions?
Are their lives examples of personal holiness?".

Notice anything? What occurred to me was the fact that none of these questions require the manifest Presence of God by His Spirit moving on the congregation (Ephesians 2:22). None of these questions will make non-believers fall down and say "God is truly among you!" (1 Corinthians 14:25). The only question related to worship asks whether the congregation is singing "gustily". Terry Virgo writes in his new book; "The Spirit-Filled Church";

"We are coming to meet God, and therefore we should anticipate we meet with God, anything less is merely being religious".

R T Kendall warned in his book; "The Sensitivity of the Spirit" that;

"If the Holy Spirit left your church today, you'd probably carry on worshipping as if nothing happened".

I think I can appreciate DeYoung's aim in writing like this but to me it seems the whole point of church has been missed. Preaching of course is vital - we need to enjoy the Ephesians 4 Ministries God has given His church and come to learn more from His Word. Worship should be far more than simply "sung gustily". Otherwise are we really any different than a secular concert? I sing gustily along with some of my favourite celebrity popstars if I go to their concerts! Of course we need good relationships - but why are we any different to social clubs? And church discipline? If God's Presence was really among His people in power - as in the book of Acts - "great fear" was present among the people because they knew they worshipped a real, interventionist, holy and loving God.

DeYoung asks first of all; "Is the gospel faithfully preached?". But let us not forget the Word of God itself - and the true gospel;

" ... for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction" - (1 Thessalonians 1:5 - NASB).

"Off-the-Peg Theology" - by Dr Stanley Jebb

Dr Stanley Jebb has written an excellent blog article today called; "Off-the-Peg Theology" which demonstrates his amazing academic insight. He critiques the assumption that so often we accept without question theological statements;

"The trouble is many young men go to theological college and accept without question the ready-made theology that is handed down to them. That is what I call “off-the-peg theology”. Rather I use the term to highlight the fact that so often statements of theology are accepted without question as long as they come from within out own circle".

Rather than;

"Unlike the Bereans, we do not search the Scriptures to see whether those things are so (Acts 17:11)".

Dr Jebb calls this theology an alternative phrase;

"Perhaps “hand-me-down theology” would be a better description. It is only too easy to accept, and even vigorously defend, a theology which we have never carefully compared with Scripture".

Stanley Jebb is correct - many theological phrases have become popular and indeed trendy in these days. Particularly phrases like; "Reformed" or "Evangelical" and sometimes "Charismatic" (although Dr Jebb didn't include the last!). But what do they really mean?

"In these days we have become rather careless in our use of such terms as ‘Reformed’ and ‘Calvinistic’. The word ‘Reformed’ is bandied about almost as though it were a synonym of ‘orthodox’, or a shorthand term for “really, really sound.”

Do we really know what John Calvin wrote in his massive Institutes? Or have we merely read John Piper or Mark Driscoll's popularized If we do not, then why are we so eager to adopt the label for ourselves? The message is excellent and clear - SCRIPTURE is our final authority and we should make every effort to search it Berean-like and see "if these things are so". If aspects of our cultural heritage do not tie up with Scripture then we should be asking why are we holding to them?

Lloyd-Jonesian Experientialism!!

It's been a while since I've mentioned blogs I tend to follow but one of my appreciations for Twitter and Facebook is the ability to keep up to date with such blogs. While I do try and read blogs that perhaps I don't agree with such as John MacArthur or C J Mahaney/Sovereign Grace Ministries or Mark Driscoll (as Ern Baxter used to say - they act as iron sharpening iron), I prefer blogs that feed my passions!

"Confluence" is one such - it is a wonderful Newfrontiers blog written by John Lanferman and other contributers, the apostolic leader in the USA. It's mission statement is;

"We want “Confluence” to be a welcome place for those who stand firm on the integrity of scripture and embrace the full activity of the Spirit’s present empowering work, along with a commitment of taking the gospel and planting churches throughout the earth".

One of my deepest appreciations is his honouring of Dr Martyn Ll0yd-Jones's monumental teaching on all things about the Person and work of the Holy Spirit. Reading "Confluence" made me wonder whether we have neglected certain aspects of the Doctor's teaching at the peril of the church. For example - it's been a while since I have written on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit - a doctrine and encounter I still hold extremely precious and indeed pivotal to Christian life. This post on the blog addresses this issue;

It asks the question:

"Is the baptism with the Holy Spirit something that all Christians receive unconsciously at conversion?".

Yes. That question still has to be answered and will continue to have to be answered as long as souls are being saved and are potentially missing out on their inheritance through wrong teaching such as cessationist or Third Wave views!

The "Confluence" blog using the teaching of Dr Lloyd-Jones begins correctly by asking the "WHAT" question of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and this is something the Doctor was cautious to do. Many modern Christians race to answer the "WHEN" question. We must understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is before we can appreciate when God gives this gift.

"It is clear that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is always something clear and unmistakable, something which can be recognized by the person to whom it happens and by others who look on at this person. This is obviously a most vital and important principle ... The very essence of this is that it is conscious, that it is experimental, obvious, plain, and clear; not only to the recipient but also to those who are familiar with him ... I think the bible makes it perfectly clear, it makes it quite beyond any doubt, that this is something essentially experimental, which involves a mystical experience, to use such a term.".

The book of Acts calls it; "This which you both see and hear". Ern Baxter used to say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS something which other people can SEE and HEAR.

But what about regeneration? Well the Doctor writes;

"Regeneration is something unconscious, not experimental; and the great point is that it is a mysterious, miraculous act worked in the depths and the vitals of the soul, and no man can tell you the moment when he was regenerated. Everybody is agreed about that - that regeneration is non-experimental. You later begin to discover the fact that you have been made regenerate and give evidence of it".

So there we have it. The logical conclusion is that IF (and I don't believe it does) the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs simultaneously with regeneration then every new convert must of necessity have an encounter with God that is seen and heard. And not everyone can testify to that. I personally had a number of steps I remember in Dunstable towards my moment or process of conversion. I couldn't say which was the actual moment. But my baptism in the Holy Spirit? I remember it clearly as if it were yesterday - in a school hall in Birmingham in 1999! And a week later in the shower the gift of tongues poured forth!

So I do recommend this blog to you - the writing is excellent and they have quite a few "Dear Doctor" blogs where they pose questions to Doctor Martyn Ll0yd-Jones. Let's not forget the importance of encountering the manifest Presence of God. I personally I am really troubled when I see so-called charismatic groups of churches being wooed by the "respectability" of evangelicalism and reformed doctrine. Why on earth would we abandon the reality of the Presence of God?! The lost will come to encounter a Person - not a doctrine, not a thought.

A Call to the Ministry - by Dr Stanley Jebb

I find Dr Stanley Jebb's latest blog post incredibly interesting - for some years I deeply believed that I was called to "the ministry". I actually had a very vivid dream I still remember well in which I was walking down a country lane with Dr Stanley Jebb and turned to him and gripped his arm and said; "Stanley - I MUST preach!". So the call to the ministry is one that is very much on my heart.

However it is interesting to me that Stanley Jebb sees the problem as; "There are some men available, but not enough to fill all the vacant pastorates. Besides, not all the men are suitable, for one reason or another". I remember being at the Westminster Conference with a friend of mine in 2001 when Stanley Jebb was speaking. And during one of the discussions, some of the elders there said the same thing; "WHERE are the young men?!". My experience as one of those "young" men is slightly different. My experience is; "WHERE are the fathers!?".

And by that I mean that I have encountered many young men and women eager in fact desperate to be used by God in ministry for Him and His church but there is a massive lack of spiritual fathers - men like Stanley himself or Terry Virgo who have the ability to father, nuture and love those young people. The three main churches I have been involved with in my life has not been positive at recognizing and using that willingness to be used. I think Sovereign Grace Ministries in Bristol was by far my worst experience. I foolishly thought that being part of a church plant would be a massive opportunity to be used and made my intentions clear that I was so keen to be available. That was seen by the leadership as "pride" and so I was ignored for 2 years.

I say again - I think the church needs BOTH! It does need those eager and willing to be called. But it needs secure and mature fathers in the faith who can gladly disciple and nuture and teach and use. One other point - essential to any "call to the ministry" is a recognition and appreciation for the Ephesians 4 Ministries. Prior to 1990 - Stanley Jebb used to teach very wisely that it is wrong to expect all to be poured into the mold of pastors. There are different gifts and different ministries - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Here's the blog post;

Call to the Ministry

By stanleyjebb

For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. (2 Chronicles 16:9).
So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land that I should not destroy it, but I found no one. (Ezekiel 22:30).
He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor… (Isaiah 59:16a).
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples, The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few; therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into his harvest. (Matthew 9:36-38).

Some months ago I was in conversation with a former President of a major denomination about the difficulty of finding a suitable pastor for a vacant pulpit. We agreed that there is a dire shortage of suitable men. There are some men available, but not enough to fill all the vacant pastorates. Besides, not all the men are suitable, for one reason or another. The few excellent men available are quickly settled into a pastorate Some of the men who have made themselves available are already in a pastorate but want to move. Either they want to leave or have been asked to leave their present position. Some of those men may be very able and sound and have good reasons for wanting to move. In the case of others it raises a question in the minds of those responsible for finding a pastor. The Scriptures cited above suggest that, in a sense, God Himself is looking for men suitable for His service. In considering this shortage it is worth asking the question, what are the necessary and the desirable qualities in ministers of the Gospel? This is how I see these matters.

1 A definite call from God.

Some would deny this. A few months ago when I mentioned in a discussion this need for a call a prominent evangelical minister retorted that there is no difference at all between the call to be a minister and the call to be a dentist . Another evangelical minister said to me, ‘The only call in the New Testament is the call to be a Christian. There is no such thing as a specific call to the ministry.’

Now granted that we use the word ‘calling’ in a general way to describe any person’s job, and therefore every person has, in that sense, his or her ‘calling’, is there really no difference? The Scripture does use the word ‘calling’ in that general sense in 1 Corinthians 7:20. But is there no difference between the sacred ministry and any other calling? Surely the vast majority of people in what we may term ‘secular’ employment actually choose their vocation. While in school or college they consider the various options and select the one that most appeals to them. In some cases they may have had that goal in mind from childhood, perhaps following in a parent s footsteps. It is certainly possible that in a very few cases their particular vocation was impressed upon them by God, but that is surely rare. It is certainly possible that a person may feel that God has specifically called them to be a dentist or a dustman, a farmer or a fisherman, but the impression one gets is that most people choose their vocation. Please note that to be doing one s job as to the Lord and serving Him in one s chosen calling is not the same thing as to be called by God in the first place to do it.

But for a man to choose the Christian ministry as his option without any sense of it being God s will, would seem to fly in the face of biblical teaching. Normally the ministry chooses the man, or the Lord does! Let me stress that I am not seeking to deny that a person may strongly feel that God led them into a particular ‘secular’ employment, but merely seeking to make clear that the call to the ministry is a definite and distinct calling, different from other ‘callings’.

Consider the Biblical evidence.
In the first place, we are told quite clearly in Hebrews 5:4 concerning the Old Testament priesthood that ‘no man takes this honour to himself, but he who is called by God.’ John the Baptist was ‘a man sent from God’ (John 1:6), and Jesus said to the apostles, ‘You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit…’ (John 15:16). Again, in Ephesians chapter four we read that the ascended Christ ‘gave gifts unto men,’ and ‘He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers’. In Acts chapter Thirteen we read that ‘as they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”’ Clearly that was not the call to salvation, but a distinct and definite call to ministry. Of course there are several ‘callings’ in Scripture which are common to all Christians, such as the call to salvation, the call to holiness, etc (e.g. 1Cor. 1:1-9). But the calling to an Ephesians four ministry is not common to all Christians, for Ephesians 4:11 states that it is only some that are so called. This calling may not come in a dramatic way. In fact one of the striking features about those called to ministry in the Bible is that each call to ministry seems to have been distinct; Moses, Gideon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul. Only the fishermen friends and brothers seem to have been called in a common way to be Christ s apostles.
Now if it is being taught that there is ‘no difference at all’ between the call to be a dentist (or any other work) and the call to be a minister, which means in effect that you can choose to be a minister if you like, is it any wonder that there are men in the ministry without a sense of definite call from God? And is it any wonder that, if the idea of a distinct call from God to the ministry is denigrated, men do not expect to hear it or, if there are a stirring within them from God, His voice is ignored as being an erroneous suggestion?
Jesus looked with compassion on the multitudes and said to the disciples, ‘The harvest truly is plentiful, but the labourers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers into His harvest.’ (Matthew 9:37,38). Surely that passage implies that labourers are specifically sent by God into the harvest? But why bother God with such prayers if there is no definite and distinct call into the ministry? Why not spend our energy in persuading men that they should choose that vocation? The answer to the dearth of ministers is to earnestly beseech God to send forth labourers, and to expound the Scriptures so that God may use such preaching to call men.
James M. George in his chapter on The Call to Pastoral Ministry writes:

The call of God to vocational ministry is different from God s call to salvation and His call to service issued to all Christians. It is a call to selected men to serve as leaders in the church. To serve in such leadership capacities, recipients of this call must have assurance that God has so selected them. A realization of this assurance rests on four criteria, the first of which is a confirmation of the call by others and by God through the circumstances of providing a place of ministry. The second criterion is the possession of abilities necessary to serve in leadership capacities. The third consists of a deep longing to serve in the ministry. The final qualification is a lifestyle characterized by moral integrity. A man who fulfils these four qualifications can rest in the assurance that God has called him to vocational Christian leadership. [Rediscovering Pastoral Ministry, John MacArthur, et al, Word Publishing, 1995, p. 102].

2. A Knowledge of the Bible.

This may seem obvious, but, alas! It cannot be taken for granted today. Many men coming from Bible Colleges and University Theological departments just do not know their Bibles. A minister showed me a letter from an officer of one of the largest city missions in this country, in which he gave examples of five candidates for posts as city missionaries who, in a fairly simple and straightforward Bible examination, revealed an appalling ignorance of Scripture. Three of those applicants had degrees in theology from British Theological colleges! A graduate of Oxford University told me that a lecturer in Theology there complained that he found it extremely difficult to get theological students to study their Bibles. When he set them a passage to study they went straight to the commentaries and quoted them, rather than studying the passage itself. This may be a reflection on the churches from which those students came, but sadly one hears of supposedly evangelical churches where drama, testimonies, family services have replaced the reading and exposition of the Word of God. And how many churches have dropped their Bible Study meetings? A minister must know his Bible.

2. Doctrinal Integrity.
If there is a lack of Bible knowledge in the churches today there is certainly also an ignorance of basic doctrine, or at least woolliness about fundamental truths. A man must be sound in doctrine if he is to be a preacher of the Gospel. A leading evangelical minister stated recently that every evangelical minister ought to be able to preach on the doctrines of grace without any notes. In other words, he should know basic doctrines so well that he could preach on them extempore.

3. Preaching ability.
It goes without saying that if a man is to be a preacher he should be able to communicate truth in a clear and compelling fashion. This ability will grow, however, if someone is called. This alone, however, is not enough. Even non-Christians can be eloquent speakers, and many liberal ministers are able communicators.

4. A man of prayer.
The apostles refused to take on other tasks because they insisted that they must give themselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word. Notice the order, prayer first. Notice also that they were to give themselves continually to these matters. It is a sad reflection on our churches that few candidates for the ministry today seem to have experienced spending a day, a half-night or a whole night in prayer, still less done this with any regularity. What is even more alarming is that some will confess that they do not have a daily time of prayer and meditation on the Word. Some pour scorn on the term Quiet Time but cannot suggest a better name for it. It is usually reckoned to be wisdom not to destroy something good until you are ready to replace it with something better, and the danger is that publicly denigrating the title of a Quiet Time may result in the practice of it suffering as a side effect.

5. Consecration.

The ministry should be their all-absorbing passion. Like Paul they should be able to say, ‘this one thing I do..’. They may, of course have other interests. It is good for a man to have a hobby, a means of relaxation. But if the hobby, the sport, television, or whatever it is, looms too large in his life so that at times the ministry takes second place, the balance is wrong. Some men today are so obsessed with sport that the ministry seems like an avocation and the sport is what they live for. The hymn, Take my life and let it be consecrated Lord to Thee, must be a reality in a minister s experience.

2. Separation.
This is a contentious issue, and standards and opinions vary widely among evangelicals today in a way that they did not fifty years ago. Worldliness is an increasing problem in Western churches at the present time. But let us take an issue which is very clear; our use of time. It is surely incontrovertible that before the advent of television no man of God would have spent as long in the cinema each week as some ministers today spend in front of the television. Oh yes, we all know that some programmes are informative and interesting, but the vast bulk of television is distinctly unedifying, and much of it is degrading and depraved. It seems to me that one application of Romans 1:31 is that to ‘have pleasure’ (AV) in those who do wicked and depraved things could include being entertained by watching people enact them. That would rule out all the ‘soaps’. But let us assume that a godly minister will not allow himself to be entertained by watching evil perpetrated on the screen. Let us simply draw attention to the amount of time spent watching TV. A recent survey revealed that many ministers spend very little time reading. It is a question of priorities. There are many other smaller issues one could mention such as dress, demeanour, general attitude, behaviour of children, attitude of wife, use of money, etc, which in themselves might not debar a man from ministry, but when added to the more serious matters turn a congregation off, or even more seriously, lead a congregation into worldly ways. By way of illustration, think about buying a second-hand car. If you are getting it for a good price then one small defect that can easily be remedied, such as one cracked wing mirror, or one worn tyre, might not put you off. But if there were many such ‘small’ defects you would almost certainly look elsewhere. It is just the same with ministers. No man is perfect, and one small defect such as a fondness for television, keenness on sport or a less than tidy appearance, might not deter some churches. But if the candidate watches a lot of TV, is very keen on, say, football, is untidy in appearance, his wife uncooperative, his children undisciplined, etc, a church would have to be either very undiscerning or desperate, or both, to call such a man.

3. Willingness to sacrifice.
It is deplorable how some churches treat their ministers. But entering the ministry is for most men a sacrifice in that they could earn more money and live more comfortably in secular employment. A man may have to go to a church that can afford only a small stipend at first, until God has blessed the work and the church has grown. Indeed he may have to take a part-time job as well as the pastorate to support himself, as the apostle Paul did.

4. Godliness.
Godliness is a general term for a way of life that is God obsessed. Some years ago the writer was at a conference and sitting next to the Principal of a well-know Bible College. In conversation it came out that we were seeking to train men for the ministry in the church I was pastoring at the time. I remarked that my aim was to produce men of God. To my astonishment the Principal remarked. ‘Oh, that s impossible in Bible College. The students are so bolshy, wanting their rights, and so on.’ What are things coming to?

5. A stable home life.
In the qualifications for an overseer in I Timothy 3, two out of the seven verses refer to the candidates family life. A minister has to set an example.

These are some of the issues the present writer considers essential for a call to the ministry.

Unblocking Old Wells

As you will see from the last couple of wells I have been working through remembering and re-discovering my personal relationship with God that I have allowed the stresses and business of life to erode. Yesterday was a glorious rediscovery of just how easy it is! And a glorious reminder of the wonderful free grace of God - that you do not have to pay penance to a sulky God because you have been away for so long but actually as soon as you turn to Him and seek Him and Him alone you find His arms are open wide.

I wanted to build on that today. It was a frustrating day because I was geared up to work tonight but the night shift got cancelled in the end. So I took to reading through some of my dusty old sermon notebooks. I am so, so grateful that we were taught to take notes as children in church! There is so much amazing truth there. For example I found notes from a sermon preached by my senior pastor Dr Stanley Jebb in Dunstable on 3rd May 1998 on "The Church in Thyatira". Here are the notes:

The promise of God that really caught my eye was from verse (v26). "He who overcomes, I will give unto him power over the nations". Stanley Jebb comments on the verse;

"It seems that there are those who are faithful who will be given responsibility and authority".

It seems to me that God is promising something amazing here! If we are faithful - if we hold on and keep believing and do not allow the cynicism of life to erode our faith in Him then we will be given power over the nations - to further advance the Kingdom of God of course. I think Stanley was typically too cautious in his interpretation of that verse. Jebb allows for "responsibility and authority" whereas the verse mentions; "the nations". Whatever the case this is an exciting promise! And one we must not forget! Another reason to hold on!

I hope to share more promises or discoveries from my notebooks as I find them! It is good - even in a "day of small things" when nothing much seems to be happening there is a right and appropriate time to go back to the pile of stones in the Jordan and remember the great works and the promises of God!

Deifying Human Beings?

I have been reading J Lee Grady's book; "The Holy Spirit is NOT for Sale" and must be honest - some of it makes for painful reading. Grady is criticising some of the charismatic movement's excesses in the book - however I must say this. It is easier to accept criticism from someone who is "in the family" (i.e. a charismatic themselves). I have been over familiar with John MacArthur's vitriolic criticisms of all things charismatic for too long and have largely ignored what he said - because the man is a self-confessed cessationist and I doubt has ever had a spiritual experience of God in his life. Grady's criticisms while hard to hear can be more easily understood.

His latest chapter addresses Paul Cain - a well-known and at times controversial servant of God. I found this chapter painful because I know that some of Paul Cain's prophecies have had tremendous impact on churches and people I love - such as Newfrontiers ("changing the expression of Christianity around the world"). Grady had sat in one of Paul Cain's meetings in 1989 and documented and evaluated the prophecies Cain brought and suggested that they were false (such as wondering whether Cain had access to church directories - hence he could quote people's names and addresses).

To be honest - I don't know. I've heard very accurate prophecies quoting names and addresses from people like Paul Cain, Todd Bentley and Joshua Mills at the Glory and Grace Conference in Hong Kong. Could the prophecies they brought have been falsified and made up? Sure. Could they have been of God? I think so. We just don't know. Does that uncertainty nullify the gift of prophecy? NEVER!

Let me say this clearly - it is the most stupid and heinous error to state the gift of prophecy (or any other spiritual gifts the Holy Spirit graciously gives) has ceased - just because of the errors and excesses of some Christians.

But I think Grady brings a really helpful series of recommendations to this issue of servants of God who perhaps display the gifts of God in a less than "perfect" manner. His first point is not limited to the charismatic movement I strongly believe - followers of the "New Calvinist" movement who similarly deify non-charismatics such as Mark Driscoll, John Piper and C J Mahaney;

1. Don't deify human beings.

Grady writes; "Thousands of Christians had put Cain on a pedestal where no man or woman belongs. People expected him almost to be like God. It was a setup for disappointment - and ultimate failure".

I have observed some disappointment and uncertainty creep in with John Piper's very honest decision to take a sabbatical. Some of his "followers" have criticised him and others have wondered if he is in trouble. I wonder what would happen to the loyal SGM masses if C J Mahaney were to fall morally? I know he preaches often about humility and states he is the "worst sinner he knows" but would his followers and SGM survive? The fact is this - these men are ALL human beings. ALL are prone to sin. ALL are prone to mistakes. And ALL have been saved by grace and grace alone. BUT .... ALL can be used awesomely by God.

The genuine words that Paul Cain brought such as "changing the expression of Christianity" are not nullified in my eyes by his humanity. Because that was a word from God to Newfrontiers which they have responded to in faith and is being fulfilled steadily.

Don't abandon the prophetic words brought by human prophets just because they are human and may make mistakes. God is the same - and the word of love He brought still stands.

2. Don't Elevate Anointing over Character.

Grady said; "When Paul instructed Timothy to choose leaders for the churches he had planted, he gave a long list of qualifications. None of these had anything to do with supernatural anointing. Paul did not tell Timothy to choose men who could heal the sick, raise the dead or interpret dreams and visions. In fact the only anointing he required was to teach the Scriptures".

He goes on; "What this shows us is that while spiritual gifts are needed for the advancement of the Kingdom, they don't authorize people to be out front. Just because a person has a powerful anointing doesn't mean they should be given a role of influence in the church".

3. Dismiss the Sensational.

Grady quotes Todd Bentley and the 2008 Lakeland Revival in a critical manner - he clearly does not like Bentley's modus operandi. Again - I found this difficult to read because on the one hand I do agree that Bentley had some unfortunate methods. But I watched the Lakeland Revival avidly during early 2008 and I do believe that God was at work during that time. Some people I greatly respected from Rob Rufus's church in Hong Kong went to visit Lakeland and brought back a "good report" - they're not the kind of people to be swept away by emotionalism. So - let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater - like Paul Cain, Lakeland wasn't all bad.

But Grady's summary was good; "When a carnal man gets involved in the miraculous ministry of the Spirit, he will try to sensationalise it, bottle it and sell it. We should never support this kind of charismatic circus sideshow".

4. Teach and Practice Discernment.

Grady writes; "We cannot avoid deception without the Holy Spirit's supernatural work among us. Discerment is something we learn by experience as our spiritual senses are trained ... Discernment is manifested by a "knowing" - a deep, gut-level sense that something is off-base".

Once again Grady cites the manifestation of gold dust in a critical manner and praises a pastor who allegedly had it tested prior to a meeting and found the gold dust was plastic. Because the said pastor cancelled the meetings where the gold dust was appearing, Grady said the pastor protected the church from "spiritual pollution". Maybe some gold dust is plastic. Maybe some of it is from heaven. I suspect that there are some genuine experiences where gold dust may appear - but from those genuine experiences, stems a desperation for it to appear.

True spiritual discernment does not come from despising anything "odd" - but rather keeping the focus on God. Don't pray for gold dust to appear. Pray for God Himself to be welcome.

5. Enforce accountability.

Grady writes; "Because so many charismatics have left their established denominations and developed a distaste for religious control, we now have the opposite problem. Our movement is too independent ... Ministers who refuse to submit to standards of accountability are spiritual renegades - and God says rebellion is the same as the sin of witchcraft".

Interestingly in another chapter Grady writes disapprovingly of the Shepherding Movement and the call of Ern Baxter and his brothers to see such accountability among churches. So one presumes he sees something of a need for a balance. The Shepherding Movement was roundly condemned - but what Ern Baxter, Don Basham, Charles Simpson and Bob Mumford recognised was that church movements were all shaped like pyramids with "one man" at the head. Their aim was to bring those leaders together in a relationship of accountability. I don't see the problem resolved despite the condemning of Baxter et al's attempt. Newfrontiers has Terry Virgo at the head. SGM has C J Mahaney at the head. Mark Driscoll is at the head of whatever he heads. And so on. These men may protest that there is accountability "within their ranks". But it would be a brave man who would call a C J Mahaney to task - particularly when he has been put where he has by C J Mahaney.

As you may be gathering - I am enjoying the issues that J Lee Grady is raising but don't agree with them all. I don't like some of the examples he uses - but this issue of "deifying human beings" is a vital one.

"An Honest Conversation" - EMA Assembly 2010 - Part 2

Last week (I think) I posted the first half of a Panel Discussion held at the EMA Assembly in London this year - present were Terry Virgo, Hugh Palmer, Vaughan Roberts, John Coles and Liam Goligher. The first half of the discussion focused around what the leaders DID agree on. The second half moves into what they DON'T agree and gets interesting!

Vaughan Roberts (V.R): Thank you Liam – over to you John.

John Coles (J.C): I was hoping to hear the wisdom of the other people because I am at a bit of a loss to know what the other reasons were. We obviously have so much in common here. The roots of many of us are the same – my own spiritual history is much the same as Hugh’s. We were working in Scripture Union camps together in the summer holidays at the same time – I went on one of Dick Lucas’s original reading parties and my background was with 2 curacies in conservative evangelical churches. I was appointed to be a vicar of a liberal, middle of the road church. It was in that context that I felt the way I presented the gospel at that stage didn’t actually have power to lead people to Christ.

So I was propelled into saying “God there must be more than this to get these people converted” – it was a real longing to see the lost saved that made me pray for a greater empowering of the Spirit because obviously that is what the Spirit comes for. When I began to get my eyes opened to the wider, charismatic/Pentecostal world and church and instead of seeing the church through the blinkers of my own training up to that point then I realised there was a lot more beyond my own experience up until that point. The more I learned the more I realised I have to learn now. God is bigger than any of us understand in part. We are all life-long learners and should be willing to learn from all sources that God is doing all around the world.

Take for example the Anglican church and the issues of morality and sexuality – we praise God for the orthodox church in Asia and Africa. Now some people heard me talk about what I was learning and feared that I was rejecting what I had learned before. So sometimes what we are saying – that is all that people think we are saying. Rather than we are saying – this, AND all this! So I sadly found myself being distanced from some people in friendship. I was going to other conferences to learn the new things I wanted to learn which was always on the basis of what I had already learned rather than in order to reject what I had already learned. I think by and large gatherings like this gather one group of people and gatherings at New Wine gather other groups of people learning other things at other stages in their lives. At times we have got to get together and realise what we DO have in common. This is why I think this is a very healthy thing what we are doing – and it is a real privilege for me to be here today.

V.R: I would love to hear the historical perspective of Hugh and Terry in a moment but I wonder if we could broaden it out – so far the emphasis has been on what we hold in common. And it may be that you feel it was accidental but I suspect behind it are some fairly important differences as well as other things we should never have divided on. So as you continue on the historical issue, are there big differences and if so what are they that we should never have divided on? We will start with you Hugh.

H.P: Yes – ‘historical perspective’ is one of those big words isn’t it and I am I not sure I have got a broad enough perspective for that but personally, coming just after Liam had invented rock music *laughter*, university days as John said – there were folk who thought of themselves as charismatic. Speaking in tongues was a big thing in those days but we were all involved in the same Christian union and same gospel business. At some point down the line there came a point where our differences became more important to us than the things we had in common. It may have been conscious or it may have been unconscious. I remember in my first curacy a guy coming up to me who would have been charismatic if you like and he said; “Well of course you would say that wouldn’t you because you are an evangelical”. I said; “Well you are as well aren’t you?”. He said; “No, no I’m a charismatic”.

It was the first time I had heard someone define themselves as charismatic over and above being evangelical. Before we had been evangelical and some were charismatic and others weren’t. Many of the folk when I was up in Norwich – and the trouble with these labels is that they are stereotypical and static but let me just use them as shorthand and say I mean nothing more than that. They come from Brethren backgrounds and had been well drilled in the Scriptures.

Somewhere in their mid-teens it had all gone a bit dry and the new life and fervour and passion that they had got was linked with their experience of receiving the Spirit and their theology of it. I remember as they enthusiastically gathered and talked to disciples and students what struck me was that they were living this experience on the 15 years of the bedrock of Bible teaching they had got. They were teaching the thing that had captured their hearts at the moment and I said; “You do realise what you are passing on is actually different from what you have got for that very reason – you have just taken the very top layer and removed the other”. Again I remember sitting with a charismatic friend hearing a teacher explain why baptism in the Spirit wasn’t a second experience and so on and he went through Acts and so on and I remember my friend saying; “Well I can buy all of that – but are you going to leave people sitting complacently in their chairs?”. The danger of the conservative side was that we taught the Spirit in terms of what the Spirit was not and what we shouldn’t believe and shouldn’t think. Then you end up in different streams and groups and we don’t meet each other and rub shoulders and we don’t test each other at all and now we don’t know whether we are people who don’t know each other and have some differences or whether we have different gospels that are coming out.

V.R: I would love to hear you Terry on the historical perspective as you will have as good an insight as any but I would also love to hear about where are the differences we differ on?

Terry Virgo (T.V): I think probably down through the centuries there have been differences that have driven quite hard wedges into the body of Christ. For instance the issue of Anabaptists in terms of harsh and judgemental decisions which we now look back in a very different light as the years have slipped by and I celebrate days like this and the friendships that we have come to experience certainly on this platform and reflected out across the room. Divisions do come not necessarily always through theological difference through quick reactions, quick caricaturing (if you think that you must be that – or you were seen with him the other day and he definitely thinks that).

So that runs ahead of you in quite a dangerous way. I was first invited many years ago to speak at a conference called Spring Harvest and you had to tick on a form whether you were charismatic or reformed. And I ticked “charismatic” AND “reformed”! *laughter*. And I would feel before God that I am a “conservative evangelical” – and I have never identified that. I know some people would say I am charismatic and not an evangelical. I have never identified with that and have always felt horrified by that. I would say my desire is to conserve biblical Christianity. In that sense “conservative”. Some people read “conservative” as “cautious” – what do I mean “conservative”? Do I mean English caution? Or do I mean conserving what the Bible says? So to pick up Vaughan’s last words – where do we differ and where do our differences lie, I would say I am personally trying to conserve Biblical Christianity as far as is possible in the 21st century with its downloading and jet planes.

I feel one of my greatest fears would be a doctrine of “cessationism” – that the Christianity of the Bible is different to a Christianity of today.

So for many of us – how and when we receive the Spirit would be a debate point we can spend some time on. But we all very generously want to feel we are experiencing something of God’s fullness. But are we also saying we want that to result in Biblical Christianity in the sense that there was power evident, supernatural things happened? That’s what Biblical Christianity was – are we saying we think that should be something different today? Are we saying that the sort of thing that happened through the apostles and the New Testament church continues today? Men like Stephen and Philip and the way they preached the gospel and the gospel advanced included that supernatural element or are we saying that was an empowering to get the gospel “started”? That would be held by some and they would say there are seasons. I know that for myself I feel I am a conservative evangelical – I want to conserve what I feel is in the Bible which would include what the Bible speaks of – which would include supernatural elements in the Bible.

Never seeing that in opposition to Biblical exposition, the teaching of the Word, building lives on Biblical revelation but moving on with the empowering aspects. I personally feel I guess within the UK now and its complete loss of Christian foundation we are more back to the kind of culture that Paul and the apostles invaded – where there is nothing you can draw from. When Billy Graham came to England in the 50s and 60s he could almost be like an Old Testament prophet and say “Come back to the truth that you actually know”. You can’t do that anymore and I think it is more like Paul’s day where the Gospel came not in word only but power – which I think was attesting signs. I think globally the advance of the gospel which is taking place in many other maybe southern hemisphere nations are seeing phenomenal break through.

I have just been reading in your bookshop here a book I haven’t seen before – the “Journals of John Tsung” – I have read about him before and he is an evangelist with phenomenal signs and wonders that took place through his ministry that led to vast numbers of people being converted. I would feel that is biblical Christianity and I would like to conserve it. So for me that is “conservative evangelicalism”.

V.R: You have mentioned two things and spent a bit longer on signs and wonders and we will come back to that. You have also raised the question of how and when the Holy Spirit comes. I guess going back 30 or 40 years that was the major point of division. The whole question of “baptism in the Holy Spirit” and some then changed the terminology but still expected some kind of second blessing. The inevitable question there – are there two types of Christian and that ended up being a cause of division up and down the land. Do you want to say a bit more about your own view on that Terry and then we will hear from others? Because I think clearly this has been a significant point of difference.

T.V: I think to say “two kinds of Christian” is very much oversimplifying our whole breadth of Christian experience. There may be those who have been plunged into water and there may be those who have been sprinkled. There may be those who say they have had a “sanctification experience” like Keswick used to teach – I didn’t. So all sorts of divisions and I would say to say there are two kinds of Christian is a very great oversimplification and I certainly wouldn’t live with that or accept that. To me how you receive the Spirit – and we could certainly spend a long time talking about that! – I feel personally in the New Testament there was a “coming upon” of the Spirit. The great Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones says that the teaching that says you have experienced everything at the new birth – that doctrine is the greatest reason for the quenching of the Holy Spirit over the last half a century. He felt very strongly about that. I think there is an argument for that. I feel the coming “upon” of the Holy Spirit which I see in the New Testament. For example when Jesus said to the disciples; “Wait till the Spirit comes upon you” – they knew what that meant. They had their Old Testaments – they knew of men like Gideon and men like Samson. People we have been hearing about who were suddenly “empowered”.

V.R: If I may just come in – would you see that “coming upon” as an infilling for a particular task that might happen on a number of occasions or would you expect for the unbeliever who has come to Christ and been forgiven, that there would be then a moment when the Holy Spirit comes in a significant moment unlike the extra fillings for particular tasks?

T.V: I would not feel it was for a particular task in the New Testament. No.

V.R: Thank you – Liam, any reaction on this particular issue which clearly has been a cause of difference?

L.G: And it still is! My view is that when someone is baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit and the progress we make in our Christian life is that more and more of our lives are captivated by, controlled by, empowered by and enabled by the Holy Spirit as we respond to the Word of God, as we grow in our relationship with God, as we pray. I personally think that some of us do not expect anything from God. By that I do not mean great experiences but I am saying that some of us do not expect that God will make a difference to us. Even though intellectually we do believe that the Bible can change a person, we experientially do not expect any change in ourselves.

We go to church on Sunday and we expect that the preacher will say something that will draw from us the “aha! I hadn’t seen that before!”. That is about as far as our expectation from church is concerned. That there will be a little insight into how that text will link with this. We will hear a good talk and go away feeling that the Bible was adequately taught and handled but without any expectation that anything will change in me or in the lives of unconverted people who may be there. So for me without having to create any unbiblical process – it seems to me that just living under the Word of God, if that word is (as we heard this morning from John Piper) Spirit and life then one would expect the Word of God would be changing people and that Christ would be encountering people through His Word and that we would have the expectation of things happening in our lives. I would say that a lot of signs and wonders are tied to the roles of the apostles and the early church – they were authenticating the ministry but I would expect that there are things that happen in ordinary Christians lives which are analogous to (not the same as) things you would find in Scripture and I would expect that to be happening. So the kind of things you (to John Coles) described – that happens! To me that happens quite frequently in Christians lives!

This kind of things happens! I believe in the ministry of angels – we believe in the ministry of angels! Do we think that there are things happening in our lives that are so unusual that there must have been the involvement of angels? Do we believe in the providence of God? Well the providence of God incorporates my dream life – it incorporates every area! Do I think the providence of God could stir me to have a dream that encourages me to prayer about something because there is something coming up? I would say we don’t need to use biblical categories in an unbiblical way and I hope that’s not disrespectful to those who hold a different view – I would simply expect in a living relationship with the Lord.

V.R: Thank you – we are beginning to merge these two areas. So John, any reflection on what’s called the “2nd blessing” or on the signs and wonders and then we will come to Hugh.

J.C: I think the word “expectation” is an important word here. When the Holy Spirit gives birth to a new Christian what are the possibilities for that new Christian and what do we as teachers teach are the possibilities? The possibilities are probably far beyond what any of us have yet realised – because God is able to do more than we ask, think or imagine. So the issue is am I letting the Holy Spirit lead me into all that God says and dreams and becomes possible for me? And then am I teaching others to expect more than I or we have yet experienced of Him? Or am I saying “Don’t expect”.

So when I prayed the prayer to receive Christ into my life at the age of 17 and a half – I was told; “Don’t expect to feel any different”. I imagine quite a lot of people here were told that. You didn’t therefore feel any different because you shut down that expectation.

Now project a number of years on and here am I now for the first time in my life in a charismatic meeting and there are some “words of knowledge” whereby the speaker’s team sense that God is saying there are people in the room with particular needs and they are going to pray for those people. And one of them describes a rash I have on my hand which I have just developed in the previous week between the base of the 1st finger and the thumb on my left hand – exactly where my problem was. I found myself at the front of the meeting being prayed for in front of everyone a few moments later. They didn’t tell me they were about to use me as a guinea pig because I had never been to one of these charismatic meetings before – I didn’t know that was the trap door I was about to fall through. As they began to pray for me someone in the gathering collapsed on the floor and the person praying for me stopped and immediately began to pray for this person as if they were having a heart attack. I interrupted him and said; “No they are not having a heart attack – they are just being set free”.

This person had been a student member at the church where I had done one of my curacies and had come to me during that time and had talked to me about the ministry of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and whether this was normative Christianity today. I said to them; “I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole – don’t expect that thing today, it’s not normal and it’s not necessary”. As a result that person had shut down all that side of their spiritual life for the next four years. In this meeting when they saw me – myself being set free from that lack of expectation and experience they themselves were also being set free from the chains I put around them which basically said; “Don’t expect to have this kind of New Testament Christianity”. So coming back to expectation what are we teaching as possible for 20th century Christians today?

It is not a question of “have I been filled? – did I have a great wow experience in the past that immediately lead to the use of any of the supernatural gifts (1 Cor 12)” and whether or not that was synonymous with when I was converted. The question is – whether NOW I am being filled with the Spirit so NOW I am living a life with an equal expectation of a supernatural interventionist God as they did in the New Testament?

And am I teaching that to the people I am pastoring and teaching such that – for instance – and this is where the rubber meets the road such as characteristic of charismatic or conservative evangelical church and the way we use the terms. By the way I really love Terry’s way of describing “conservative” as “conserving”! How then do we do evangelism? Do we go and knock on doors and say “Can I talk to you about Jesus?” or do we (a la Luke 10) go and knock on doors and say; “Is anyone sick so I can pray for you?”. And the consequence of the expectation I have been speaking to you about is that every Christian can do the latter and not just the former! Going and blessing a house with peace and saying “Can I pray for anyone that’s sick” – will also open the doors which leads to evangelism and ultimately a relationship with Jesus Christ.

V.R: Thank you John. Hugh?

H.P: If you don’t have the Spirit of Christ then you don’t belong to Christ Paul says. I have been confronted before by people who tell me I might be Christian but I haven’t received the Spirit and I need that before I can be properly Christian – and my answer to that is, look you can tell me I’m not a Christian but don’t tell me I am a Christian but don’t have the Spirit. I can’t be in that sort of weird no-man’s land – it doesn’t seem to be a biblical one. To say there is some kind of necessary thing I need over and above – I struggle with hugely. I must be able to say that at one end but commands like “Go on being filled with the Spirit” have no place in my mindset, my heart-set, my expectation. It seems to me the danger of the label can be that we have just got a box.

And if you have got a label then everything I have in that box is where you are, whereas it seems to me that there is much more of a spectrum – so you can take things whether it is tongues or healings. Actually expectation is an important word – so is there the expectation that all this is mandatory which I would raise huge question marks by in the New Testament. So it seems to me that those are some of the labels we have got to grapple with and it doesn’t always help us. I suspect we may have people at the far ends on some points and even we may be at the far ends on some of these points.

V.R: On one particular issue in light of what John has just said – in your evangelistic programme at All Souls, if you are not knocking on doors and offering healing are you in some ways being sub-biblical? How would you respond to some of the things John has been saying about signs and wonders? Are you missing out on something that should be normative? Because I take it that isn’t the way you do evangelism?

H.P: We may do it differently from you Vaughan! (*laughter*). I am not convinced as I read through the New Testament that remains normative. Which is not the same thing as saying I shouldn’t expect it ever. As I read on there are all kinds of illustrations around Jesus and the Gospels and the early church and certainly those signs and wonders and miracle works certainly should be seen at least as endorsing the revelation of the Apostles but as I read on in the New Testament and the letters and so on, there seems to me to be significantly less emphasis that way and as I read them less expectation that is the normative thing. I don’t find Timothy being expected to. Now we can say well it was just so obvious that he didn’t have to say it. I am not convinced by that. Nor am I trying to say that is the only expectation for those miracles in the New Testament –

But I would want an expectation level that doesn’t have it as normative and mandatory without reducing it to; “Oh it can’t and won’t happen so if I hear of a healing then there must be something manipulative about it”.

V.R: We are running out of time and I just sense we have touched on some huge issues – which was always going to happen. We are talking briefly but it may be that you are really frustrated and something hasn’t been said that you really wanted saying or a false impression has been given. Where then do we go from here – what are the on-going challenges for us? Can we work together? Can’t we? What should we be saying to one another? So it’s an opportunity really to say what you want as we draw to a close.

T.V: I think it will be when I’ve gone out of the door that is when I will think; “Oh I should have said that!”. I honestly celebrate the relational developments that have made this possible. They have not always been there. 20 years ago there was a lot of hostility which I feel is not present now. And it has been a joy to celebrate common ground – evangelically common ground speaking at conferences. This last Sunday I was speaking in Croydon and I understand there were 21 churches represented there and I did something similar in Aberdeen and Dundee – right across the city. Things like New Word Alive have been a great, great joy to stand on the same platform with people who would have different ways of doing local church and I really celebrate that. I would urge that we hear one another through and that we are sure we understood what was being said and I am sure we can be in danger of highlighting something. When we got started people made all sorts of accusatory comments which people in our ranks thought; “Why did they say that?

That’s not what we are at all!”. I think those days have gone. I thank God so much for that. I think there is a genuine appreciation and celebration of other people’s success – I genuinely believe that – we praise God for people who do church differently to us, the success they are enjoying, and the breakthroughs that they see. I think there’s a lot of borrowing from one another that is quite fascinating. Earlier on John Coles spoke about our worship songs flowing over. We have the great privilege of having Stuart Townend and Nathan Fellingham in our local church. It was great to be invited to speak at Keswick and virtually every song that came before I preached was written in my home church. I thought; “Well this is lovely!”. That we can enjoy comradeship – it’s a delight and I would encouragement that more and more – hearing one another through. Yes so maybe we do differ on our expectation of the supernatural which is the thing we just came to an end on. I think we would say we live in the “Now but not yet” – we do live in the limitations of that whole eschatological overlap that we will not see everything break through yet but our levels of expectation – yes I know I want my levels to be pushed through.

V.R: Time is running out so let’s keep it fairly prompt. Liam?

L.G: There’s a sense of which if you have been listening very carefully you will have noticed that everyone is a cessationist up to a degree. The question is of degree really. There is nothing we are saying that what is happening in our churches is actually exactly what happened in Acts. We are not seeing what happened in Acts as an actual reality. If anyone said that I think we are diminishing what is going on in Acts in terms of the quality/quantity of the signs and wonders that are going on there. Many of my charismatic friends are quick to say; “Well it’s not quite the same – we have apostles today but they are not quite the same”. My own view is that the remaining issue is the issue of revelation and continuing revelation. That is the heart of the thing and I would want to emphasise.

I would want to say that prophecy and tongues have to be taken together as revelatory things and that revelation is complete in Christ and He is the final Word and that gets into the Bible and we have it. Now having said that I believe the Holy Spirit acts along and through the Word – that He uses it in ways and with power in our lives and in ways that are not always as tied down as we would like them to be. I don’t think the unusual is normal. But I do think the unusual happens. Certain things are not normative in the church – the normal means of grace are the way God normally works. But absolutely if we believe in the sovereignty of God – we have to say that things will happen that are extraordinary. We pray for healing in our church! The elders pray for healing regularly.

V.R: I am going to have to stop you there Liam – time is very short. John and then Hugh?

J.C: Our nation needs Jesus – how do people come to faith in Jesus? He said; “Believe Me because of what I am saying but if you cannot believe Me because of what I am saying, believe Me because of the works I am doing”. How do people come to faith? Some will come to faith through their minds. Hearing, reasoning and responding. Some will come through other felt needs being met. I think that is the issue of the words being preceded by the works. From my experience when the two happen together we are seeing a wider cross-section of our community coming to Christ as a result of both those two things. What’s the implication of this? For local mission some churches may well emphasise the Word. Some may more emphasise the works and felt need evangelism. Let’s just rejoice that they are complimentary that more may come to faith in Jesus because without them – they are lost. That is what we are going for friends – that the lost may be saved. That hell may be plundered and heaven populated. People can come through the Word or through the works – they did in Jesus day and let’s make sure they are still coming. If another church emphasises the Word or the works in a way that we are not, instead of criticising let’s firstly commend and give God’s blessing on each other’s churches – and as in Oxford let’s try to work together as much as we can.

V.R: Thank you John.