Monday, October 21, 2013
"This Movement (Charismatic) has Diminished Music" - John Macarthur
And he stated rather proudly he doesn't care about offending people. So I feel little shame in joining the right and proper robust responses against him.
He stated charismatics are, in his eyes, unsaved - and he stuck by it. But even he seemed to flounder a little when confronting issues such as the fact that equally credible and respected theologians such as John Piper or Wayne Grudem would not agree with his hyper-cessationist, anti-charismatic views. Adrian Warnock reported from the Q and A session in the conference that he seemed to bluster;
"With John Piper, that is a complete anomaly. That is just so off everything else about him ... Even Wayne Grudem. I look at this as an anomaly [in his theology]. I don’t know and don’t need to know where this impulse comes from".
The thrust of Macarthur's argument too about worship seems highly inconsistent. His spin-doctor fans on Twitter seem to claim "of course he is not throwing the entire baby out with the bathwater" - apparently Macarthur likes Stuart Townend's "The Power of the Cross". Whether he does or doesn't, or maybe doesn't realise Townend comes from Newfrontiers flagship church "Church of Christ the King" in Brighton - he is clear on his views of charismatic worship offering to the church universal. Challies reports;
"MacArthur disagrees with this opinion. He is convinced that the contemporary style of music in the charismatic movement is the entry point of false doctrine into our churches. A church rooted in historical doctrine and hymns will be reluctant to embrace this music. This movement has diminished music by taking it out of the area of the mind and reduces it to feelings of the flesh".
There are thousands of songs from charismatic songwriters I could quote but as "the Power of the Cross" was cited - let's focus on that;
I love this song because it particularly highlights and preaches the power of the complete gospel. And if Macarthur maybe would claim that this song from Townend is an "anomoly" like he sees Piper and Grudem's more charismatic pneumatology - I would rather counter that I think (I don't know - I haven't heard a testimony of how he wrote it) but actually Stuart Townend's charismatic experience and encounters with God indeed aided and inspired him to see the glorious gospel in it's entirety!
A key example of this is - to me - the baptism of the Holy Spirit (and for clarity's sake - I remain Lloyd-Jonesian in my understanding of this). Macarthur presumably would class this among other "demonic" doctrines. But I loved the way that Terry Virgo at Stoneleigh Bible Week 2000 drew the vital paralell between the ascension of Jesus the risen Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. For those with no time to hear the clip - here's what Terry said;
"Every person filled with the Holy Spirit is a proof and demonstration that Jesus Christ is not a corpse in some hidden cave in the Middle East. Every Christian filled with the Holy Spirit is proof that He ascended on high ... only resurrected, ascended Messiah's can give the Holy Spirit. Dead corpses aren't very good at it. It is a demonstration He is alive! It is His coronation gift!".
I would counter Macarthur's vitriol that the charismatic movement has spread in such entirety because it is "offering the world what it wants" - rather I think the charismatic movement is reminded the church what real life in the New Covenant is. Of course I would not claim, as some charismatics do, that reformed evangelicals are "dry, dead and dusty" (although some are). Neither would I claim that ALL charismatic churches are "alive, exciting and in right relationship with the risen Christ".
I actually believe that many charismatic movements and streams have become dry, flabby and complacent. Back in the 1970s and 80s there was much talk of "building a house for God". House churches thrived and there was a passion to relive New Covenant life. There are many charismatic (so-called) churches I visit and one can almost predict what "gift" will be manifested. And this complacency has no-doubt fuelled Macarthur and other anti-charismatic views.
Suddenly (thanks to people like Mark Driscoll - well-intended as he is) the focus has become "mission" - and the endless buzz word is "mission". If your church is not "missional" then you should be ashamed of yourself - we are led to believe. Many charismatic churches have seemed to have forgotten that true life in the Spirit and an enjoyment of the Presence of God naturally leads to a passion for the lost.
As John Piper said;
"Mission exists because worship doesn't".
Oh that many of us could remember the words of Terry Virgo at Stoneleigh Bible Week 1998 - we are a "dwelling place for God in the Spirit". Oh for churches springing up (or being revived truly) across the UK. Less of the silly counterfeit and more of reality!!
Sunday, October 20, 2013
An Endless Optimistic/Oft Disappointed Charismatic is Grateful for Strange Fire!
But what it has done has made me reflect and remember why I AM an unashamed charismatic and STILL believe and hope and look for the encounters and interventions of God by His Spirit that the Word of God promises. I do bitterly regret the last few years of being "prone to wander" from God and His church but my hope and longing for Him has remained unchanged. I am aware that many of John Macarthur's spirit would immediately discount anything I have to say - "Well he's a backslider - and therefore probably unsaved anyway!". But the benefit to being on the outside of accepted church circles is that you can say what you like and not fear the consequences of being "excommunicated"! (I'm not sure if the double jeopardy legal principle applies to excommunication - I hope so).
A Small Testimony:
As I said in my previous post on "Strange Fire" I have been charismatic in theology and experience since I was baptised in the Holy Spirit back in 1999. But if I am honest I would say that while my theology and belief hasn't changed (if anything increased in longing) my experience hasn't been that much measured up to what many charismatics claim, believe or experience today. My beliefs and theology were built upon by much reading of many books after the senior pastor Dr Stanley Jebb changed his theology and thus the church's.
It wasn't long into my reading that a biographical sermon of John Piper's on Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones led me primarily to his glorious book "Joy Unspeakable" and then more broadly into the whole published works of the Doctor and his remarkable ministry (still take pride of place in my library!). I should add I still find it remarkable that my pastor Dr Jebb actually sat under Dr Lloyd-Jones for some time as part of his fatherly ministry to younger pastors - and I didn't seize on the link or pick up interest in Dr Lloyd-Jones over 18 years of being under Dr Jebb's ministry.
I heard balanced reformed/charismatics like Dr Ern Baxter (who rapidly became my number one hero!) and taught that a "tension" MUST be held between Word and Spirit. I think this explains my initial excitement when I first encountered C J Mahaney and PDI (now SGM) as well as of course my ongoing love and appreciation for Terry Virgo and Newfrontiers ("Fundamentally we are a Word and Spirit movement" - Terry Virgo, Brighton 2009). To go to Stoneleigh Bible Week in 1999 and 2000 and finally in 2001 was a taste of heaven itself almost! Heavenly worship and singing, the spiritual gifts in evidence and awesome preaching - a demonstration if you will of Ern Baxter's fervent belief that it WAS possible to experience God in all His fullness as the Word of God lays out!
Seeking More:
Throughout my life I have sought to look for and hunger for more, and have had the opportunity to go to many conferences or hear great or renowned men and women of God. For example I went with my dear friend Pete Day to the Word, Spirit and Power Conference at Westminster Chapel in London in 2001. We heard and saw Dr R T Kendall (a man I already hugely respected) but also Paul Cain - a famous (now infamous) prophet who had links back to the Kansas City Prophet movement. I had heard his prophecies were acutely accurate and so I was fascinated, open and hungry to see him.
Was I impressed? If I'm honest - not particularly. I couldn't say in integrity any of his prophecies were as I had heard. Did that make me discount the gift of prophecy? No. Of course now it is well known that Paul Cain has fallen into sin - and for many that discounts him and his gift. Does it mean any of his prophecies were not true? No. It just means that Paul Cain was and is a human being and "prone to wander".
Through that conference we heard that Rodney Howard-Browne (of Toronto Blessing fame) was coming to speak at Westminster Chapel at R T Kendall's invitation. So me and my dad went down. Our church "missed" the Toronto Blessing due to Stanley Jebb's views on it - and I was eager to see if there was anything in it!
Was I impressed? Again not particularly. I wasn't "slain in the Spirit". At one point Rodney got us all to join hands and sing some sort of "silly" song and people at the end of our pew did fall - hence I "almost" did! It didn't bother or impress me, but neither did it make me discount the present moving of the Holy Spirit and the fact that some have been touched powerfully by God through Rodney's ministry.
Probably the most powerful visit I did make was a few years back, when I travelled alone to Hong Kong and to the very FIRST (and as yet only!) "Glory and Grace Conference" hosted by the incredible Rob Rufus and City Church International. I did encounter God powerfully, became over-awed by the true glory of the gospel and the power of the Cross and His resurrection and what that meant for me personally (far more in that one week than I had attending a Sovereign Grace ministries "cross-obsessed" church for 2 years!)
Strange Fire?:
These initial experiences made me hunger to know more of God, alongside reading the Bible about promises such as from 1 Corinthians 14:24 and 25;
"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you".
To me this is one of the clearest Scriptural indicators of the potential power of the prophetic gift. I admit I have not seen unbelievers convicted by much of modern prophecy today. But just because I have not seen or experienced it, does NOT take away from the Word of God! And one of my greatest frustrations with the cessationist viewpoint outlined by what seems like the WHOLE of the "Strange Fire" conference is exactly this;
Demonstration of excess and spurious means the genuine is not present or real.
RUBBISH! How can these men who so-called claim they honour and value the Word of God really discount entire portions of Scripture just by the presence of excess? I look forward to hearing the DVD strreams of "Strange Fire" but I am supremely unimpressed by Tim Challies summaries of the complete lack of exposition - particularly by alleged-"excellent" Bible teacher John Macarthur himself.
It seems appropriate to end this reflection by re-quoting Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones;
"The greatest sin of the evangelical church is to put God into a box and tell Him what He can and cannot do".
That is the only "Strange Fire" I see - but I remain grateful to Macarthur et al for re-stirring a passion within me to seek God through His Holy Spirit. I have sorely missed Him these past two years!
Reformed and Charismatic from Terry Virgo on Vimeo.
Tuesday, April 24, 2012
Unchanging Truth in a Time of Change
In Dunstable, Stanley - our senior pastor - made a major shift in his theology on the Holy Spirit and such a change unfortunately coincided with my baptism in the Holy Spirit. However God worked this together for good - and I had to dig deep into the Word of God and such teachers as Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones and Terry Virgo who led me to see the glorious truth.
In SGM, my history and subsequent observation of C J Mahaney and Dave Harvey's behaviour as revealed by Brent Detwiler shook my faith again. But I am believing that God is working this together for good and is leading me step by step away from this sin-focused obsession and step by step into His glorious grace.
I was running on the treadmill at the gym today and by chance (I run my iPhone on shuffle) a wonderful old chorus of Dave Fellingham's came on (squashed in between Steps and Lady Gaga);
"At Your feet we fall, mighty risen Lord,
As we come before Your throne to worship You.
By Your Spirit's power You now draw our hearts,
And we hear Your voice in triumph ringing clear.
I am He that liveth, that liveth and was dead,
Behold I am alive forever more.
There we see You stand, mighty risen Lord,
Clothed in garments pure and holy, shining bright.
Eyes of flashing fire, feet like burnished bronze,
And the sound of many waters is Your voice.
Like the shining sun in its noonday strength,
We now see the glory of Your wondrous face.
Once that face was marred, but now You're glorified,
And Your words like a two-edged sword have mighty power".
An amazing song! But it was a tremendous reminder of the unchanging nature of the living God. I've been spending time tonight re-visiting the past promises, dreams and visions that God has been so favourable to grant me (nothing compared to a man like Rob Rufus - but still - I am BLESSED!). For example, I was amazed to have completely forgotten these few dreams;
"Terry Virgo and Angels Snipers!!" - a dream I had back in 2009.
"Dreams, dreams, dreams!!" - documenting some of the key dreams I have had in my life - one back in 2001 about a call to "ministry", one involving a tidal wave of glory speeding towards Brighton in 2006 (that I shared with Terry Virgo) and another about walking in a field of corn with my dear friend Pete Day.
A reminder - a glorious one at that - of the power of children prophesying - "your daughters shall prophesy!".
"The tide is turning" - a prophetic promise from Terry Virgo back at the glorious Brighton conference in 2007 - is still true I think. But tides ... who can predict when they reach fullness? I found this quote from Jim Goll;
"When God seems silent, there are several things you can do. 1. Stick with what you already know.What was the last thing the Lord said to you or told you to do? Have you done it? Why should He tell you something new until you have completed what He has already revealed?".
Thursday, February 16, 2012
Glimmers of Life in the UK!!

Word & Spirit : 3 The Necessity for Demonstration from Revelation Church London on Vimeo.
DEMONSTRATION!!
Oh how my weary heart longs for demonstration of the beliefs we have talked about for years. Reformed theology is all well and good. And Lord knows - I generally still believe most of what I have always believed. But I am tired of conference after conference talking about "theology".
It's all very well being "together" for the gospel. But if the gospel doesn't change a needy, lost, hurting world - then really what is the point? I don't want to go to another conference where I do not see a "demonstration of power" there - praying for the sick, appeals to the lost, signs and wonders! I'm tired of a Christianity that has nothing to offer but words!
I can't make this conference - but I hope it spreads the seed for this essential - primary balance of theology and experience. Nothing else will do! To end with Terry Virgo's statement;
"We have never been content with a cessationist perspective that expects the church to try advancing without God’s manifest presence".
Sunday, January 15, 2012
Leadership Skills According to the Iron Lady
I originally intended to come back from the cinema 2 days ago and write a post reflecting on leadership skills in the church based on the awesome film; "Iron Lady". However my apartment was broken into and we had some very valuable things robbed including my iPad - so that distracted me somewhat! Then I woke up yesterday ready for a long day at work and was in the wrong place to read Mark Driscoll's rather unfortunate assessment of preaching and teaching in the United Kingdom.
Tuesday, December 20, 2011
Terry Virgo speaking at Covenant Life Church!!
Here's the video;
Empowered by the Holy Spirit from Covenant Life Church on Vimeo.
Sunday, December 11, 2011
Terry Virgo at Covenant Life Church!

It is certainly debatable whether CLC is fully reformed. It is no longer debatable at all that CLC is charismatic".
Monday, November 21, 2011
Great News! Terry Virgo to speak at Covenant Life Church

Tuesday, September 06, 2011
Calling for a New Charismatic Resurgence!!

Wednesday, August 31, 2011
Heroes of Faith: Interviews with Terry Virgo
Revelation TV interview part 1 from Terry Virgo on Vimeo.
Saturday, July 30, 2011
The Treasures of the Newfrontiers Magazine

Thursday, July 21, 2011
True Apostles are True Fathers!

From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 12:19 PM
To: Jenny Detwiler; Jonathan Detwiler
Subject: What Happen to the A Team
Check out ―"What happened to the apostolic team?" - It is not a truthful answer. The apostolic team was comprised of men we believed were called as apostles,not just pastors, in keeping with the teaching of Eph 4:11, etc.
The Statement of Faith makes this clear. It reads, ―The ascended Christ has given gift ministries to the church (including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers)
for the equipping of Christ‘s body that it might mature and grow. Through the
gift ministries all members of the Church are to be nurtured and equipped forthe work
of ministry.
Sovereign Grace no longer believes in present day apostles and I presume prophets. The five fold ministry is out. The three fold ministry is in. What concerned me the most was the effect such an explanation would have upondiscerning readers who have been a part of the movement for more than five years. Itwould undermine your credibility. Except for you; Dave, Steve and I all gave up ourpastorates in order to fulfill our calling as apostles. We were not a team of pastors. We were a team of apostles. We were an apostolic team. Not a pastoral team.
Since then Sovereign Grace‘s understanding of apostles continues to fluctuate. I‘m still
not sure if you believe in apostles and prophets per Ephesians 4:11, etc. If you don‘t,
the Statement of Faith must be changed. But this much I know, when I stepped downfrom the apostolic team in November 2007, none of us thought of ourselves as apastoral team.Sovereign Grace Ministries can change its ecclesiology and polity, but it should notmisrepresent the past. Instead be honest. Just say we believed in apostles then, we
don‘t believe in them anymore. In the past we called it a team of apostles, now we call
it a team of pastors. In Reformed and evangelical circles it is unacceptable to refer to oneself as an apostle or prophet. Those gift ministries have ended according to their theology. But let‘s not try to save face in those circles by spinning our understanding of the apostolic team in the past.Now a days, you refer to yourself as the President and to Dave, Jeff and Joshua as Directors.
Thursday, July 14, 2011
Together on a Mission 2011 - Day 3!
Wednesday, July 13, 2011
Together on a Mission 2011 - Day 2!
Tuesday, July 12, 2011
Together on a Mission 2011 - Day 1!

Friday, July 08, 2011
Brighton Conference ... with a difference!!

Sunday, June 26, 2011
Rob Rufus on "The Flow of the Anointing"
