Restoring Our Vocabulary ...

I do have a post currently being drafted. My South African best friend Brogan and I are co-writing it together addressing the subject of suicide. Suicide from the mountaintop of grace! And it isn't an objective perspective. Both Brogan and I have and daily deal personally with the temptation of suicide. We are writing because we really do understand. But that is a process in coming!

Today I just want to get a "rant" off my chest. I am sick to the back teeth of "labels". What do I mean by that? Well if we persist as a church in living in a mixture of Old Covenant and New Covenant terminology then we may be familiar with certain labels but we certainly are not consistent with them. Brogan texted me today and used a label that I will address - and it irked me. It didn't irk me that he used it. It irked me that a lifetime of legalism forced him to use it out of habit.

So I want to propose two scenarios. The first is a scenario that is consistent mixing of Old Covenant and New Covenant. The second is purely New Covenant.

1. Mixing Old and New Covenant.

The label that Brogan used in a text to me was "queer". I don't think anyone will need help in understanding the context of that label. "Queer" is just one of the labels used to denote people with a homosexual orientation - i.e they are attracted to the same sex. But the dictionary definition of "queer" is this;

"1. strange or odd from a conventional viewpoint; unusually different; singular: a queer notion of justice.

2.of a questionable nature or character; suspicious; shady: Something queer about the language of the prospectus kept investors away".

It seems to me there is absolutely nothing positive about the use of this term in connection with the children of God. However I'm sadly familiar with it. Before I talk about consistency, then there is a key verse that should be mentioned here - 2 Corinthians 5:19;

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation".

If God is "not counting our trespasses against us" then what business do we have using a label that denotes particular sons or daughters of God as "strange or odd"?! Be that as it may - if we ARE going to use that particular label, then we must be consistent. If we are going to mix law with grace - then we should be aware that the law is absolutely radical! And law has a lot of labels. Here's a few that should be included in our vocabulary along with "queer".

Adulterer - an individual who looks at another with lust in their heart (Matthew 5:28).

Penalty under law: Required mutilation of offending limbs (Matthew 5:29-30).

Murderer - an individual who looks at another with hate in their heart (Matthew 5:21-22).

Penalty under law: Hell fire (Matthew 5:21-22).

The Proud - an individual who (albeit secretly) loves themselves, thinks there is something good about themselves and cannot quite believe they 100% need God (Psalm 10:4).

Penalty under law: The HATRED of God (Proverbs 8:13).

The Coveter - an individual who looks at a possession of another and wants it albeit secretly (Exod. 20:17).

Penalty under law: The curses of Deuteronomy 28:16-68.

And those are just a selection. Is anyone prepared to adopt those labels? Have you ever looked at a woman/man with lust in your heart? In that case, how are you "adulterer"? Have you ever felt so strongly against someone that you hated them? Are you facing your actions "murderer"?

Some may claim I am being petty. But that is exactly the whole point of the law. The Law IS petty. The Law excuses NONE! If you have looked at another individual with lust in your heart and that person was not your married spouse then you have committed adultery in your heart and you are guilty of death (mutilated of course). If you have hated another individual and felt so strongly against them that you have called them "fool" or the modern equivalent in your heart then you are guilty of hell fire.

Galatians 5:4 is clear; "You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace".

Todd Bentley has not fallen from grace by getting divorced! Are you trying to gain acceptance before God through keeping forms of the law? Then it is you who have fallen from grace.

But there is another alternative!

2. New Covenant - How God Sees Us!

I have already quoted 2 Corinthians 5:19. God is not counting man's sins against him! The wrath of God has been satisfied 2,000 years ago on Calvary. The New Testament is packed full of the phrase; "You were ... but now you are".

Galatians 5:18: "But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law".

Law or Spirit. It is not a case of both! It is a case of either/or. You chose law - you can use the term "queer" - but you must also adopt for yourself the many terms law has for you. You choose grace?! There is just one state.

"You are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God!".

So I ended my text discussion with Brogan asking him not to use or adopt the label "queer". God is not counting man's sin against them therefore the only valid label that we may adopt under the New Covenant is this;

We are beloved sons and daughters of God - brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ - beloved, chosen before the foundation of the world - justified, called, chosen, sanctified, glorified - accepted!

Ern Baxter on Romans and Abraham!!

Here is the second video clip I've discovered of Ern addressing the key figure of Abraham. I never really appreciated the role that Abraham played in redemptive history until I saw him through revelation through Rob's ministry earlier in the year. Since then everything just seems to make "sense"! Words like "righteousness" and "faith" have stopped carrying condemning connotations and now carry excitement and vision and hope!

I have been reading "Five Views on Law and Gospel" and found it an interesting read in comparing the different ways that theology views the place of the law. But I found it disappointing to see that one theologian wrote of Abraham;

"Even though he (Abraham) did not receive the Decalogue, he kept the law of God ... It is important to note that the "father of faith" was a law keeper".

It seems to me that the Bible is pretty clear that Abraham walked with God apart from law - hence why he truly is the "father of faith" - (Romans 4:13, 4:16, Galatians 3:17 (law came 430 years after Abraham!), 3:18 and so on)

I love the way Ern deals with Abraham and brings his encounter with God to life - again his preaching style and humour so reminds me of Rob and vice versa!

Ern Baxter on Romans and Righteousness!!

I've been thinking quite a bit about this blog and it's direction particularly as the majority of my time is taken up with Rob Rufus's ministry and transcribing his sermons over here. My initial attraction to Rob Rufus's ministry in July 2007 in Brighton was how he reminded me of Ern Baxter. I was thrilled therefore to find that Ern was one of Rob's heroes! And while I've tried to publish and transcribe a lot of Ern's ministry there is still so much more to share and be heard and not be forgotten.

So I have got out a box of Ern's video sessions at the Anglia Bible Week in 1985 (I was merely 8 years old!). He brought a series on the first few chapters of Romans upto chapter 8. A lot of the material is extremely theological and deep but I want to publish video clips that mark and highlight and back up this outstanding message and walk of grace many of us are on.

The first is a clip where Ern is talking about righteousness and it's inevitable triumph. But he begins by speaking about how wrong it is and what a blasphemy to the Cross it is to remain pseudo-humbly thinking of ourselves as "worms" and focusing on our sin. Now I understand the word "righteousness" as "right standing with God", it is possible to hear this clip in a new wonderful light!

Terry Virgo proves me wrong ... again!!

I am increasingly loving being proved wrong - I think in the past when I used to be puffed up with pride reading my theological books and liking to convince myself that I was something of an "academic" then being proved wrong was horrid. But as I am growing older I am realising that there is a wonderful joy in being proved wrong especially when it is by older and wiser heroes of the faith!

Many know that I expressed some doubts about our recent visit to Church of Christ the King in Brighton and my discomfort with the style of how they conducted the evening meeting. It seemed a bit too "Driscoll-esque" for my liking and I pondered over how effective it is for churches to be so militantly "missional" or whether our focus should be on seeing the Presence of God break out in our churches and then the unsaved will come - as they did in the book of Acts!

The demonstration of true New Testament churches proved to be irresistable to the lost!

Frankly at present the church is anything BUT "irresistable" because we are preaching a mixture of law and grace and bluntly - the non-Christian wants to feel good about him or herself. And they come into church and feel worse about themselves and that is not through an effective preaching of the Gospel for that will bring them to the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Saviour! No - the feeling worse is through a preaching of legalism and an atmosphere of judgementalism.

But I digress. I was wrong! Yes I am really grateful that my friend Mark Heath advised me not to judge CCK purely on one service. I guess the danger is to get a snapshot and then draw assumptions from that. My wrong assumption was to worry that since Mark Driscoll's visit to Brighton - CCK, Terry and Newfrontiers were abandoning the charismatic heritage and the emphasis on the Presence of the Spirit for "mission" (excessive!? Me?!?! Well at least I'm not lukewarm Laodecian!).

Terry's latest blog had this comment in it;

"Kings have power downward and priests have power upward prevailing with God. It is through our priestly prayer ministry that we reign with Christ. Without a powerful priestly ministry, ruling is mere ambition. The priority is to reach God, then people – not the reverse".

It is a powerful and wonderful reminder that we have a dual inherited ministry of being a "royal priesthood" and I would love to hear more sermons unpacking that reality in our lives! Rather than constant reminders of how sinful we are. And I love that final underlined sentance - that we reach God and then people! What is the point in going out to the lost multitudes when we have got nothing to show them? What is the point in going if our message is just "words only" but no power accompanying?

I am not saying that we do the Pentecostal-style "tarrying" because we have the power already! The heavens are open! The Spirit has been poured out! We are in a New Covenant!! But the question is are our churches living in the full freedom of that? Are our churches expressions of the full glory of the power and freedom of the New Covenant? Or are remnants of legalism and law still affecting and hanging over? Because I guarantee you on good authority - unbelievers will know when there is law and legalism about. I think they are actually better discerners of it than many Christians.

But John Piper once said that the more we spend time nearer the heart that is white-hot ablaze for God (and there is NONE more white-hot for God than God Himself) the more we will be changed into His likeness "from glory to glory". And that means taking Sundays beyond just the peripheral charismatic "tongues and prophecy". That means prophecies that expose the secrets of men's hearts and cause them to fall down in worship! That means gifts of healing and signs and wonders will be in operation and finally we will see Jesus' declaration come to pass;

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised and to preach the acceptable year of the Lord".

Convicted of Righteousness - a good thing?

There's a very interesting discussion going on over at Mark Heath's website; "Word and Spirit". Interestingly enough he has pulled a verse up for examination that until last October caused me enormous guilt problems and then at "Glory and Grace" in Hong Kong, I saw it in a new light and then caused me wonderful joy! The verse is John 16:8-11;

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged".

So at my home church - New Covenant Church in Dunstable - when things were taking a slightly sour cessationist downturn, this verse was regularly used to brow-beat the people of God into showing that the Holy Spirit is given mainly to "CONVICT"! Not to do fun, exciting things like distribute spiritual gifts. And the dangerous mix of Old and New Covenant law and grace was then subtly applied to suggest that if we were not humbly desperately feeling bad about our sin then the Holy Spirit was not really and truly at work within us. Seriously. I have an old church magazine in my possession where the editorial said that the gift of tongues is a SELFISH gift (well if it's selfish to want to build yourself up in the faith by talking in tongues and following the example of the apostle Paul - then gimme more!)

Anyway - so as I said I never really liked this verse until I heard Rob Rufus preach and expound it in his sermon on the Holy Spirit, the Sunday after "Glory and Grace" on the 28th October. He showed that while part of the role of the Holy Spirit is to show the world that they are sinners and need a Saviour - the part of His role towards us is to actually show us and convict us that we ARE righteous and that we HAVE the imputed righteousness of God! Rob asked the question - if we have received "all the fullness of Christ", why would the Holy Spirit come and point out gaps where we need to add works to Christ's finished work? That would suggest that the Cross was somehow defective - and it got us in but hasn't finished us off. And that is blasphemous.

So with that mixed history with this verse I was interested to read Mark's post; "Convicted of Righteousness" and see that he too has been visiting commentaries and examining what this verse means. Typically of Mark's careful scholarship and love of reading he examines commentaries which was helpful - only I was disappointed with Don Carson's usually honest examination of the text. Apparantly Carson thought that the verse had something to do with; "the Spirit is simply continuing an important aspect of the ministry of Jesus, confronting and challenging religious hypocrisy". Hmm ... not convinced!

I left an inital comment mainly because I have been reading Jonathan Edwards "Notes on Scripture" - my new Christmas present! - and was excited to see how similar some of Jonathan Edwards conclusions on law and grace are to Rob Rufus's. So I left a comment with a quote of Edwards I found on Galatians 5:18 that I posted a few days ago. My good friend Julie left a concise and helpful comment too saying;

"Keeping that in mind the interpretation you bring up would make no sense, but that the job of the Holy Spirit is to convince believers of their righteousness in Jesus would be very consistent with the rest of Scripture in the New Covenant".

This is important - it's not so much a case of finding the writer or teacher that best supports your view but examining the explanation that is most consistent with the New Covenant! Julie also had a vital comment on how we view sin in New Covenant life;

"I think you have given a rather old covenant definition of sin, thinking it is primarily bad behaviour. New covenenant definition of sin is unbelief (which could lead to bad behaviour), concerning what we believe about God and how righteousness is obtained".

Last night I was continuing to read Jonathan Edwards and was thrilled to find his exact comment on the verse in question and Edwards wrote this;

"On John 16:8-11;

And when the Comforter has come, He will convince the world of sin, of righteousness, of judgement. He shall convict the world of sin as men must be convinced of their guilt in order to receive Christ. That is the reason that sin and guilt lie upon them because they believe not on Christ and their rejecting Christ above all things enhances their guilt".

(Here it is:)

“Of righteousness” - that is He will convict them of the sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness of the way of REMOVING guilt by Him. Christ finished His work as priest, or what He did for the removing of guilt by His ascending into heaven, His entering into the holiest of all with His own blood to make intercession for us and thereby GAVE EVIDENCE TO THE WORLD THAT WHAT HE HAD DONE WAS ENOUGH”.

That is such good news! Evidence has been given to the world by the fact that Jesus Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father and poured out the Holy Spirit that what He has done is ENOUGH! The Cross of Jesus Christ is entirely 100% sufficient! There is not a gap left to be filled by "our works". Our works can do NOTHING! Our acts achieve NOTHING with the Father! God is only ever and always interested in the perfect righteousness of His Son! Only that - ONLY that will give us bold access to the Father! So yes in a sense my former church was partially right. The Holy Spirit isn't just about tongues and prophecy. His key work is to come into us as a Spirit of sonship and give us assurance that we are accepted in the beloved and He will convict us when doubt and fear set in that we are sons and that Christ's righteousness is accepted - God the just is satisfied!

Okay - I am getting excitable and shouting. Deep breaths! ...

Ern Baxter with William Branham

Just couldn't resist a final quick post and a link to a site I discovered set up I think by supporters of the late William Branham. It's called: "Believe the Sign" and there is a seperate page devoted to Ern Baxter and his involvement with William Branham. They very kindly link to the website that is hopefully being still developed with Pete Day - "Ern Baxter dot com" and make reference to an interview with Ern that I published about Branham.

The photo that they published was also of great interest to me - it is Ern Baxter standing deep in thought in front of a ministry car for William Branham. The website very honestly makes note of the fact that in his later years Ern Baxter seperated himself from Branham's doctrines yet never, ever (a point I had to argue and battle with some of the elders at my home church in Dunstable who were trying to claim that Ern Baxter didn't support Branham) argued with the verifiable and authentic miracles that he witnessed while travelling with Branham.

Here's a video that I published some time ago - of an interview with Ern where he was discussing William Branham:



Why do I make mention of this? I mentioned yesterday that Rob Rufus provokes me by his relationship and continual encounters with the manifest Presence of God and the resulting signs and wonders that follow the message of grace that marks his ministry. I have found a video on You-Tube of testimonies from Kings Church in Eastbourne following Rob's visit that we were able to be at (Pete, Scott and myself along with Nick and Malcolm):



The difference to me - the unfolding revelation that is clear to me marking us out as different from the days of William Branham and the other healers of the 1950's is that in those days people flocked to those men and women seeking a miracle from them. And God blessed them graciously! But what I feel passionately now is that Rob Rufus among many others have opened up the truths of the Scripture to us to show that we ALL are responsible for seeing signs, wonders and miracles following OUR ministry and OUR witness.

The question is - will we accept that we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ and as such are equipped by God the Holy Spirit to go out and make His Name famous among the nations!?

Get Thee Up into the High Mountain!!

Well once again God shows His wonderful grace through some awesome friends I've got. I'm being taken away tomorrow for a week's surprise holiday for my birthday! (It's on the 8th December). It was felt that I would benefit from some winter sun. I can tell I'm a workaholic when I don't want to go away because I will miss the chance to work! But I am going because I think it will be a good break - and hopefully a chance to re-boot, rest and make some major decision choices.

But most importantly of all - I pray again its a chance to just do "nothing" and encounter God in powerful ways. I love this clip where Rob was speaking to the Mobilise thousands last Brighton conference when we were there and he urges that getting away with God is so important.



I love the way that Rob's example is so grace-filled. My life has been full of great men and women of God who have testified to an awesome relationship with Him. But somehow I have always felt condemned and guilty because I couldn't quite match up to their walk with God. Yet Rob Rufus is a different story and I am not quite sure how he does it. He testifies to encounters with God that I can only dream of - yet this motivates me rather than condemns me! I think because his teaching is so undergirded with New Covenant grace - no one can be left with the impression that it's thanks to great scholar-ship or great study or great prayer and fasting but GRACE!!

So I've got great hopes for this week - I hope to return refreshed and full of revelation and new vision for the end of this difficult year and a new year full of hope and promise! Loadsa love to everyone - hope you have a great week. I will try and get to an internet cafe if I can but if not - see you when I get back!

Joseph Prince on the Danger of Condemnation

I saw this video clip on Lydia's blog and watched it out of pure interest. I've heard Joseph Prince mentioned a couple of times and am increasingly growing grateful for his ministry. This video clip sounds so alike Rob Rufus and his sermon; ! The title? "When you are under condemnation - Gods favour cannot flow". Here it is;



I insist again that we visit and re-visit this issue of condemnation and whether we as Christians should really be tolerating an introspective man-created guilt for sins that are already paid for on the Cross of Jesus Christ 2, 000 years ago! It's like having a bank debt that's been paid off - and yet you insist on going in weekly with your cheque payment. The bank would laugh at you. So why do we insist on trying to re-pay our debts of sin that have already been cleared with guilt that wouldn't do anything to cancel the debt anyway? We may as well resurrect the sacrificing of bulls and goats!

When is the Church going to wake up and realise that we're FREE!?

A Righteous Frustration!!

I go through pangs of guilt every now and then that I don't feel happier with my Christian life. The last couple of Sundays I have been at the gym when "Songs of Praise" has been on and I've felt guilty at the unnerving spectacle of the row upon row of Christians singing wonderful songs but with dead-pan faces. Why aren't we as Christians happier? Or more joyful? Of course I cannot judge those who appear on "Songs of Praise" on their expressions alone. To be sure some of them may have joy inexpressible in their hearts - but the Bible does seem to suggest that out of the mouth will flow the affairs of the heart. If we had that genuine joy inexpressible in response to the touch of a divine God then the world would know.

I earnestly believe that. The problem then with a miserable Church is not God - but us. We haven't encountered Him and the revelation of His grace as we should. John Piper talked about the way to get white-hot for God is to get near to His white-hot heart! I don't think the problem is getting orthodoxy right but getting zeal for His house right and allowing it to consume us. To be sure Todd Bentley had problems with matters of orthodoxy but no one can deny his zeal and the impact he had and I believe will continue to have.

All that said, I still feel guilty and think should I heed my parents counsel and "settle"? I was thrilled therefore to find the following in my new book that I am enjoying; "The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind".

Bill Johnson said;

"I have come to see that the normal Christian life means miracles, spiritual intervention and revelation. It means peace, joy, love, a sense of well-being and purpose - all these traits that ellude so many Christians. Written into the spiritual DNA of every believer is an appetite for the impossible that cannot be ignored or wished away. The Holy Spirit, the very Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us, making it impossible for us to be content with what we can only see, hear, touch, taste and smell. Our hearts know there is much more to life than what we perceive with our senses; we are spiritually agitated by the lack of connection with the realm of the supernatural".

What a sense of freedom! What a sense of joy and relief! Suddenly I see a diagnosis that the problem is not that I and many others are just miserable and frustrated - but that it is within our spiritual DNA! Bill Johnson mentioned again this theme that seems to keep coming up and up - that the SAME Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is WITHIN us! How can we then not expect signs and wonders and miracles and interventions in our lives?

It's the Power that Will Bring the Young!

Another Hillsongs-inspired post. I was walking back from my last night shift at the hospice for a much needed week and a half off (but working probably at the Childrens Hospital!) and was thinking ... I do that a lot! I was incredibly moved during the night by having to wash and dress a teenager with Muscular Dystrophy (a disorder I'm coming rapidly to hate) and was so upset by his fraility and the awareness he had that he needed complete care. If he felt anything like I did when I was a teenager, he would probably be mortified at having to be washed and dressed by two adults. I did my best to laugh and joke with him but still ... my heart went out to him.

Then I happened to be listening to the awesome song "Believe" from the older Hillsongs album; "For This Cause" and I remembered that during the video - as you will see - they get hundreds of young people up and the sight of them worshipping God with all their hearts just moves me so much. Young people are getting a bad rap in the UK at the moment - what with the almost monthly news of some new stabbing. I wonder if the cry of their hearts (even if they don't realise it) is something like this;

"I'm sick of playing the game of religion - I'm tired of losing my reason for living - Where's the power? - The power of the cross in my life?".

Here's the video. Watch the teenagers carefully.



Don't we owe them the power of the Cross at the very least? Doesn't that teenager that I had to carefully wash and dress this morning for fear of breaking one of his fragile bones DESERVE the right to experience and see the power of God unveiled through His people - His Bride - the Church in signs and wonders and miracles that accompany the words from our mouths? Doesn't he (and thousands of millions of others crippled by disease) deserve the touch of power and love and compassion from us who have been changed by the awesome revelation of the New Covenant?

Still believing ... still reaching ...

Rob Rufus on Indwelling Sin

Sometimes I get questioned on why my particular "bug-bears" in theological discussion are as they are. Subjects such as the meaning of the Song of Solomon, biblical manhood and womanhood and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are all guaranteed to get me going! Why so? Because I think each of these subjects have got the potential to cause great harm and damage - or taught rightly great blessing to the body of Christ. Indwelling sin is a more recent topic of discussion mainly since my days within SGM but has become equally important in thinking through.

I'm deeply indebted to Ryan Rufus's book; "Do Christians still have sinful nature?" for helping me to re-think through the correct Biblical perspective on this. It actually DOES matter how we view our new standing and nature in Christ! So I was greatly encouraged to hear Rob himself address the issue while speaking at the Sydney "Glory and Grace Conference". Here's what he had to say;

"Let me deal with this question of whether Christians have a sin nature or not ... I do not believe that Christians have a sin nature anymore. Under first Adam and law, you did. Rob are you saying that a Christian can't sin? You shouldn't even have to ask that question. Of course a a Christian can sin but that is not sin nature.

A sin nature is a nature that hates God and loves sinning and hates anything to do with God. A sin nature loves sinning, desires and wants to sin. We are telling Christians when you are born again and now have a new righteous nature that doesn't want to sin but you have got a sin nature as well and they are fighting each other and the one you feed the most will win the fight.

We don't have a sinning nature! We can sin but we are not under the control of a sinning nature".

I've had some quite recent very helpful dialogue with Janelle Phillips on this (about which we differ a bit in our views!). The key issue of course is that we are all seeking to become as Christ-like as possible and we all have a desire to grow in holiness! However I have been quite surprised at some Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones quotes that show a slight differing from the classic views on holy living that are being circulated at the moment (but at the same time, Dr Lloyd-Jones sounds so similar to Rob Rufus!) For example;

"When we sin, we should not feel that we are back under the wrath of God, but that we have hurt a loving Father. What a difference! "There is no condemnation" but we have wounded and hurt a loving Father. So we go back to Him as the prodigal son did, and find that all is well".

Not the breaking of rules! But the breaking of a heart. What a far greater incentive to not sin. I think Terry Virgo said something similar at the Brighton Leaders Conference in 2005. But the quote that really surprised me was this one;

"No one has ever been cured of immorality by reading books on the control of sex - never has been, never will".

I must admit I never read "Not Even a Hint: Guarding Your Heart Against Lust". I wonder if any who have can vouch that they have made major strides in the battle to get their minds pure. But the overall emphasis of the Rob Rufus quote to me is that we needn't worry that we are "feeding" some sin nature that may grow or get weaker depending on how strictly we adhere to the spiritual disciplines. That was all triumphed over at the Cross! We now stand in resurrection newness of life.

(PS: After this quote Rob went into some quite graphic descriptions of the meaning of circumcision and it's relevance here. If the comments and debate gets too heated - I will post it to make the emphasis a bit clearer! Be warned!).