Saturday, July 26, 2008

Critics of Rob Rufus Rear Their Heads ...

Rob Rufus has always alluded to the incredible amount of criticism and virtual abuse he receives for unashamedly preaching the message of glory and grace and I have always wondered what these people look like. I was interested in that in the space of two quotes, two critics have arrived. The quotes they so objected to were these; "Rob Rufus on the Florida Outpouring Critics" and "Rob Rufus on the Gift of Tongues". On the one hand I am sure Rob Rufus does not need the likes of me to come to his defence but as these criticisms have been posted on one of my blogs I feel I should at least address them.


"All we have is the bible. It is not about experience, emotion, or what gifts are being presented. It is about the written word of God. I find your words offensive ... Rob Rufus, the apologetic community is watching you and NCMI, and unfavorable reports are coming out from SA and Aust".

I think a comment like this scarcely requires an answer - these "heresy hunters" again and again fall into the same cliches. On the one hand they say; "All we have is the Bible - it is not about experience ..." and yet on the other hand do not carefully and sensibly respond to the Scriptures that Rob himself has quoted and cited in defence of the viewpoint he is preaching. "I find your words offensive". It's so easy to become very emotional about the positions we are defending and I did want to answer "Mark" - but on the other hand I suspect there is nothing I can say that would appease his offense. My only suggestion could be that he stops looking at blogs where he may find Rob Rufus's words. I suspect he won't as these people often feel it is their "Christian duty" to answer such worrying quotes to themselves.

His final comment; "The apologetic community"?! Who and what on earth is that and what on earth does "unfavourable reports" entail. Again I object to the "heresy hunters" carefully coded words of warning that are so frequent and so labourious. It was something I was very used to at my home church and it usually went something like this; "Good men are very concerned". "Anyone who is discerning should be worried". "Beware of "certain" so-called preachers". These self-appointed heresy hunters have taken it upon themselves to "warn the Church" of such dangerous men and yet can offer no objective warnings. "Unfavourable reports"? Where are they? Let me read them first-hand and maybe they can be taken seriously.

Then "Tim" found Rob's quote on the gift of tongues almost as upsetting as "Mark" - maybe more so as he cast doubt on Rob's very salvation - something that proves he is obviously bolder than many. I would not like to take the place of God deciding who is and is not elect. "Tim" too took a very cliched approach to answering the issue of the gift of tongues;

"Rob this shows your true colors, this is new age and is part of the occult. The spirits that you refer to are not from the God of the Bible but rather a twisted version that is based in the occult. The talking in tongues that charismatics often talk about is exactly the same as used by sharmas, witch doctors, hindus etc ... May God have pity on you, you need much prayer and obviously salvation".

I did in fact leave a response to "Tim". Once again the cliched response of cessationists (as I presume these people are) is to point to the counterfeit of the New Age as "proof" that there can be no genuine gift of tongues. This again was something I heard all-too frequently at my home church. "We must beware the counterfeit". "We must be careful of the spurious". "We must beware of abberations". My simple reply is this; I do accept and agree that the Bible instructs us to "test the spirits". But the Bible does not call us to "reject all spirits". There is a testing to be done! If all gifts of the Spirit, all experiences of God, all heavenly encounters, all visions and dreams had deliberately and objectively stopped when the canon of Scripture was closed then why are we asked to "test" and "prove all things" and "cling to what is good?".

If all that is around is the counterfeit then we simply need avoid everything experiential and simply as "Mark" calls - cling to the Bible and the Bible alone. But the ironic thing that these "Word people" claim is that it is the very Word of God that outlines these gifts of the Spirit, these heavenly encounters, these visions and dreams. It is the BIBLE that gives us our expectation! If I am to be persuaded that these things are "not so" then I want to see some Scriptural evidence rather than "dire warnings" of the New Age.

These comments have given me a taste of what Rob must receive weekly and even daily maybe - and he has my fullest sympathy and support and prayers! If I have been unjust in my portrayal of these critics then I am open to correction. In my opinion these two comments are simply "destructive criticism". As my friend Lydia challenged;

"If you find Rob's words offensive then you have a problem with God's word, because he is speaking straight from Scripture, 2 Tim. 3:5 ....talks about people with a form of godliness that deny the power, have nothing to do with them".

The lines are being drawn in the sand it seems, and the only secure foundation we have is the Word of God. Not tradition. Not the teachings of one's favourite evangelical celebrity. The Word of God.

30 comments:

07000intune said...

6:31a.m!!!Must be a hospice day!!
love the criticism poster.

I am crouched down at the moment,with my fingers in my ears.I've barricaded the house placing objects all over our forecourt.And I'm waiting until a few days time.

The thing I prophesied in 1989 and wrote on your site on May 11th is about to occur.Rob Rufus will stop mid-preach, look out of the Hong Kong window ...then suddenly announce that a cloud the size of 12 Hiroshimas is going off in the Spirit in Canada.(It is Canada isn't it?)

A lethal mix (at least to the devil) of two test-tubes being added together over there has caused this danger. Charismatic faith life, praise and entry into God's Presence corporately and individually, in one test-tube meets the down to earth Christ Living His Life As Me test-tube of Alphabet Soup. Yes it was Shawna who set the whole thing off and the Body of Christ worldwide was never the same again.

Meanwhile Dan Bowen is still transcribing what Rob is preaching.
"Aha!this is the grace message to the extreme! Rats! Shawna got there first. And all because of that silly website of Dan Bowen's!"
Dan pauses his transcribing sheepishly, and doesn't write that bit!!

jul said...

And this why we should pray for Rob and other preachers of the real gospel, and not only pray but encourage them! Sometimes we think they are above needing our encouragement but they aren't at all. We don't need to feel we should defend every word Rob says but we should stand with him as brothers and sisters and unashamedly preach the gospel and stand up for what Scripture REALLY says, attacking offensively every demonic twisting of God's word that we come across.

The accuser of the brethren delights to use the mouths of those who are are think they are part of the church. We reject accusations and condemnation and receive the grace and blessing of our Father because of our faith in his Son, while praying for all those who have set themselves up as enemies of God by rejecting the gospel as he laid out clearly in Scripture, a righteousness from God apart from works of the law...

jul said...

Chris, what's this about Canada??? It seems I missed something and I have no clue what you're talking about, but I really want to know!

07000intune said...

Did Shawna say she was in Canada?

jul said...

I don't know that either! Wow, I'm really behind...

07000intune said...

Dan,
This is awesome...awesome...awesome.
You think, did I miss something???

About 2 months ago, our church was trogging along at one sort of level, then came the Conference. Various of us have been riveted to God TV as we could manage to watch, which is not always possible. Various members, and people we know have been to Florida...but coupled with this in the congregation at large, there has been a revving up of engines too. I've been away last Sunday, and Christine Ben and I went today, and I have to agree with my friend James...I am practically speechless with the changes going on. It's like almost scary...that which people have been imbibing for 10,20,30 years of input, is now glowing like a light within them. You can see the description that Paul wrote of the church being Living letters of God's Spirit ready for the world to read. It is an awesome awesome thing that God has been doing through Peter and Mariette Stott who founded the work 30 years ago.
And this is just our church. You get the feeling all over the world God's people are beginning to stand to attention as the Great Commander Jesus begins to take His Place.
=============================
People have been writing about deliverance from demons and healing, and that beautiful example in Bill Johnson's Church with that dancer.
There is much to say about all this, but you know what is happening and we see it already in the way Morris Cerullo ministers, and now Todd Bentley.....where we simply watch what Jesus is doing, and just follow along. He said I can do nothing apart from what I see My Father in heaven doing. However Jesus communicates that to each one....with Todd it is like a waking dream, with others it is a prophetic sense, or at other times it is through physical sensation of ailments....however it manifests, it is a burst of advanced supernatural knowledge regarding how the Holy Spirit wants to move. Our job is to confess it, to speak it out by faith. So in one sense there is very little difference between moving in healing or deliverance. Morris Cerullo calls this discerning of spirits. If you are calling out multiple sclerosis, or if you are calling out a spirit of witchcraft, the effect is just the same. It is a Power encounter with the Living God, bringing His beautiful Kingdom to bear on an ugly manifestation of the Fall, and driving it out. It is going behind the physical scene, to the spiritual root behind and blasting it off the face of God's Earth.
============================
Personally, I was used to bringing prophetic words in ever acclerating fashion over the last 18 months in particular in our church. Then I experienced a bit of a change at the May Conference. Now what is happening is I sense God telling me to go over to a person or couple and just pray or Command or Declare something over them. Quite often it is only one word or phrase, repeated several times. It may not be as intellectually fulfilling, but it literally seems to kickstart processes in people.To open doors for them.
One of the most awesome changes in this move is in the area of teaching. For years we have been used to 40 minute - 60 minute sermons of teaching. But now , based on the scripture I have mentioned before in John 7:17 "If any man's will is to do the Will of the Father, He shall know whether the teaching be of God"....This is like a supernatural learning. It's like you turning a switch on the inside of your heart, and the instant you do a floodgate of Divine accelerated learning seems to fall like a deluge into your mind and heart.....

So as i said based on this I was recently used to pray for one couple and their daughter and proclaim that they would receive more light in the next few weeks than in the whole of their Christian life so far. And I have no doubt that this is happening to them. 90% of all that I have written on this blog since Feb came in an enormous Divine download from 1988-89. So this is awesome...and changes the role of teachers somewhat. Listen , all the stuff Dan has allowed me to write here I have never been allowed to share anywhere. I have never taught in our church, nor in any church. I consider it an enormous privilege that any of you have bothered reading any of it...because my 20 year experience since 1989 has been nobody has been interested...even a little bit. This all changed this year in 2008. And I have felt freedom to begin to share.

joyfullydia said...

I am interested Chris.....the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.....we really do need to share every testimony we can - I think it accelerates the Kingdom.....we need fresh inspiration and encouragement constantly and it keeps us from being satisfied with the status quo and want more for ourselves, more of what God is doing in our own locations, not out of jealousy but hunger!!!!

Sheila said...

I fear for "Tim", whoever he is. Of all things that are ~not~ to be done, saying that the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil is the one thing that is ~never~ to be done. Even something that *might* be a work of the Spirit, but we are not sure. It might be flesh, it might be Spirit, but lets refrain from saying it is the work of demons. Sure, within every move of God, demons manifest in people, and sometimes they manifest in seemingly "spiritual" ways, as the woman who was dancing in the church. (referenced on a previous blog) So pastoral oversight must deal with the demonic manifestations, without fanfare and without "drama", and without characterizing what is merely the unfamiliar as being devilish.

My husband and I are very careful, even when bringing (necessary) critique or balance to some church event or someone operating in zeal without knowlege, or some "new" teaching that gets a little crazy and 'off'...we are still careful to ~never~ infer that it is satanic or demonic. Whew. That makes me shudder.

I have a strong, visceral reaction to those "ministries" which fancy themselves as Bible-police. I have grace for every sort of person, except the legalist and the critic, I guess. What I should say is that I can find something to like in every sort of person BUT a legalist or a "church policeman"...church attendance police, Bible-police, pride police, the-pastor's-children-didn't-behave-perfectly police....

I simply do not like them, and would not invite them to my house for B-B-Q and diet Coke. They are no fun. The really bold statement I am about to make is this: I don't think Jesus enjoyed them either, in His time on earth.

Shawna said...

Hee, hee. I'm really excited right now! Sorry for the confusion though about my location, I'm so blog-shy that this is actually the first place that I've EVER dared leave a comment and share about myself. I'm actually in the seacoast of New Hampshire, USA. Julie, we may have even met. Your family was at the newfrontiers Celebration Northeast 2006, that I did a lot of administration for. I can tell that you are a truly gracious person by the way that you described your room key situation not knowing that someone responsible for that would one day read your post (for anyone now confused by what I'm writing, Julie has a blog post on her site about her experience that weekend). So there, now I'm starting to feel all exposed, I don't know how you can all be so vulnerable right out there online. It's freeing though. So yes, I'm part of a young newfrontiers church in Portsmouth, NH. Here's why I'm so excited right now. In the summer of 2001 (um...pretty sure) just before it was planted out from the church we were members of in Rochester, NH, I was at a prayer meeting and we were praying for the plant (I had no idea that we'd join it 4 years later) I had this snapshot picture of a cloud like that of an atomic bomb going off over the area. I shared it with the two others that I was praying with but didn't know what to think of it, except "big impact". Then I was listening to the debriefing session from the Hong Kong Glory and Grace Conference in October and someone there had the same picture of a cloud over their city, a "Glory Cloud" and it brought that little snapshot picture from years ago right back, but now with more clarity as to meaning. I read your comment of May 11th just now, Chris, sorry it completely eluded me earlier, something is definitely starting to click. I've got the "alphabet soup" on the way, but it probably won't arrive for another week. I'm totally spoiled by downloadable messages, but hungry enough that I'll order a cassette tape from anywhere if it comes recommended. :)
And now I'm off camping with my family for a week. It's too bad about the criticism of Rob Rufus, did you see that the CCI website was hacked too? For a little while a video (I think it was Islamic) would play if you tried to access their site. But now they have a new prettier site up and running.

Dan Bowen said...

Chris,

"Listen , all the stuff Dan has allowed me to write here I have never been allowed to share anywhere. I have never taught in our church, nor in any church. I consider it an enormous privilege that any of you have bothered reading any of it...because my 20 year experience since 1989 has been nobody has been interested...even a little bit. This all changed this year in 2008. And I have felt freedom to begin to share".

I think for me this demonstrates again the absolute VITAL role that comments play (or can play) in the life of blogs. As I have said before, I have noticed that Christian celebrity's don't tend to allow comments on their blogs - usually I guess because they don't "have the time" (hated phrase) to interact or deal with the issues being flagged up.

That gives me a cold shudder. Because while I appreciate they may have teaching gifts and a lot of them do, the blogs are often the rare opportunity that everyone has to respond, ask questions, dialogue and disagree with what is being written.

After all - who could or would claim to write objective truth?! I surely dare wouldn't. I've made frequent use of the facility on "Together for the Gospel" blog to email questions in - which surprisingly enough never get answered or acknowledged!

So it is my greatest and highest honour that you would choose my blog to share the prophetic insights that are beginning to flow with increasing intensity I note. I don't just mean Chris - I mean any of you. It's not a case of me allowing it! It's welcome! It's eagerly anticipated!

There's only a few situations where I would ever exercise the write to "trash" a comment - and I think that individual knows well enough by now what he has to do to get that treatment!

Shawna, I am so soooo buzzed about that vision of the atomic "glory cloud"!! We have heard visions of tsunamis, atomic glory clouds - these are all earth-shattering predictions of the wave of glory that is coming!

Finally Sheila,

"I have a strong, visceral reaction to those "ministries" which fancy themselves as Bible-police. I have grace for every sort of person, except the legalist and the critic, I guess. What I should say is that I can find something to like in every sort of person BUT a legalist or a "church policeman"...church attendance police, Bible-police, pride police, the-pastor's-children-didn't-behave-perfectly police....

I simply do not like them, and would not invite them to my house for B-B-Q and diet Coke. They are no fun. The really bold statement I am about to make is this: I don't think Jesus enjoyed them either, in His time on earth".

AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN!! I cannot stand them and make no secret of it. I'll never forget having dinner with my family and the daughter was present of a former pastor - and someone who blogs profusely now - and she was speaking extremely harshly and judgementally about the TV series "Will and Grace" because "it was gay".

I asked her probingly what she thought about "Friends". That was okay she said. So I began to ask her why "heterosexual" immorality that "Friends" portrays is acceptable while "Will and Grace" immorality is wrong because it's gay. She of course had no answer but had clearly been programmed well by her father.

It's inconsistent, it's traditionalism from conservative religion gone mad and frankly it STINKS.

These are the people who would walk by a leper on the other side of the road. I wonder what our modern day equivalent of lepers are? HIV? AIDS? I love what Rob Rufus says;

"Under the Old Covenant if you touched a leper, you were unclean. Under the New Covenant if you touched a leper they were HEALED".

Time to start living in the New Covenant people!

07000intune said...

How weird is that? A writer in portsmouth UK writing a kind of prophetic jest about a glory explosion in Portsmouth Hampshire, thinking it was Canada.
=================
Thanks Dan for your response.

Sheila, We hed a man over here in the 90s called Jacov Prasch. For months I received his mail. Unerringly every anointed man I know was slated. I used to read his letter to see who I should be listening to!

07000intune said...

oops...I forgot Lydia. Thanks so much for that.

jul said...

Shawna, that's very cool, that was a really great weekend for us too. We thought we'd be a Newfrontier church actually but things didn't seem to go that way, we're still very very thankful for the key role different people in Newfrontiers have played in our journey so far, hopefully our relationship there is not at an end yet! If you're ever up this way or visiting the Meeting Place let me know and we'll get together! You're always welcome to come stay with us too if you'd like to vacation in the Great North, haha, we're not that far above you.

Dan Bowen said...

Ha ha Chris,

I had a very similar experience when my home church marched head-long into functional cessationism. I had been baptised in the Holy Spirit and was desperate to lay my hands on charismatic material of any nature - particularly of course interested in Ern Baxter and friends! But charismatic literature was banned very swiftly (apart from foolishly they left their entire stock of New Wine Magazines tucked in some corner room - which I took on long term loan!!).

The book I found most interesting was "Charismatic Chaos" by John MacArthur and was gripped by his accounts of heavenly experiences and visions that happened to people such as Jack Hayford. MacArthur was obviously telling this tales because of "discernment" and "warning" - I on the other hand was thrilled and intrigued and wanted to know more!

I used "Charismatic Chaos" then as a reference book to seek out new tapes, videos, materials on the internet about the charismatic! So I guess John MacArthur is owed a big fat thanks!

Sheila said...

Re: "Will and Grace" and "Friends". My husband would tell you that he has low tolerance for either TV show. So do I. I suppose its because I have kids, and want to see them live an abundant life, rather than a mere, boring immoral life. Immorality is vastly overdone. Requires no creativity. :-)

I've heard it taught that fornication is fornication - and that abstinence ("flee fornication") is the solution. Tim nor I have ministered extensively to the gay culture, but if heterosexuals can, for the sake of Christ, practice abstinence, then a homosexual can abstain from sexual sin as well.

Sadly, both homosexual sin and heterosexual sin has become as common expected as the dust in my house. Truly, as CS Lewis said...."we are half-hearted creatures, fooling around with drink and sex and ambition, when infinite joy is offered to us. Like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum, because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea, we are far too easily pleased.”

jul said...

I don't think abstinence is the solution, but freedom. Freedom will lead to enjoying sex in its proper context as a gift from God...

I think that's part of why the church has failed with the homosexual community, they offer no hope for changed desire, and unless the desire can be gone, the outlook for someone is quite bleak, just the same for an 'alcoholic' who has no hope of ever being free from a compelling desire to drink even if they manage to not drink. I believe that the gospel is very powerful and actually sets people completely free, not perhaps from temptations at times, but free from bondage and slavery to sin--all sin.

Not trying to be difficult Sheila hehe, I imagine I'm splitting hairs abit.

07000intune said...

When i was at my lowest ebb regarding sex stuff, one of the many steps out of the mire came out of John Clarke's mouth. He is one of those in the MIA. He didn't actually mean to catapult me heavenward...but he was talking on the verse "God is at work in you to will and to work for His good pleasure." See ,the devil was continually leaning on my desires as proof that I didn't really want a sinless life in this area. And it's hard to come back with anything useful when your feelings are telling you how much you want that stuff. But the Word through John's mouth had the same freeing sword from the chains of darkness that I guess the adulteress felt , when looking around saw all those with stones had left, and Jesus said softly Neither do I condemn you....(then the next phrase which has to be heard in the Spirit because it was like an anointed prophecy containing the very grace to accomplish it)Now go and sin no more."

So "God is at work in you to will and to work..." and that's the first time I knew I had ammo against the devil in my feelings...because I could say to my feelings...No the Word says that God is changing my will to line up with Him...so Devil...get lost!!!"

This was literally one of my steps out of a very real charismatic hell in the 80s. I wish we could have got to Tony Morton, before he fell and lost all his ministry.(Southampton apostle)

I am deadly deadly serious when I talk of second level and third level Christianity, and Jesus laying His axe to the root. How many more have to fall, only to be condemned by their brothers and sisters? I have been trying to encourage the son of our apostle Jorge Pradas (Emsworth days)that there is a whole lot more, and that the third level actually works. He is the one who organised one of the 2 main praise groups in the stadiums of Argentina in the massive revival in the 80s.Currently he is far away from things.

07000intune said...

I loved that Dan...very similar

Sheila said...

I see what you mean by "freedom". And I agree. Here's a thought, too: freedom reveals. It reveals our heart towards God, in whether we partake of our "freedom" to sin, or "freedom" to abstain.

"Abstain" is a very Biblical word! We are to "abstain" from even the appearance of evil...even as a grace-based gal, I have to concede that "abstain" in the Greek means...er...abstain. And to "flee immorality" means...uh...to flee it.

I'm all about freedom, Biblical freedom. The Bible says, "Don't let your liberty become an occasion for the flesh." I think, to continue with my tongue in my cheek, that "don't let" in the original Greek means, "Don't allow that". I (sometimes) WISH that freedom meant freedom to do whatever I want and still be considered a spiritual leader.

All things are "lawful" - but out of love for God, abstinence from sexual sin is both wise and will impact GENERATIONS. It is the one sin that the Bible says, to be blunt, is not without consequences that are simply different. Every other sin is "outside" the body, Scripture says.

Too bad no one can characterize me as prudish, or shrug me off as legalistic. HA! Anyone who knows me knows otherwise. I just can't get around what Scripture says plainly, and I tend to not look for ways around it.

Mark said...

You have made a lot of assumptions. This article I believe is only written to offer Rob up as some type of martyr. You presume just because their are so-called heresy hunters posting material that may be anti a certain doctrine or teaching that he must be right.
I took the liberty of posting Robs view on the Charismatic section of the Christian Apologetic Research Ministry forum, and guess what. there is not one Charismatic that came to Robs defense. I think that if I was to post the same in the Word Faith forum, there would properly be more supportive comment for such a view.

It is not wrong to defend the church, and I personally believe that it is every Christians duty to do so.
This article is a great example of an apologist defending a point of view.

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
1 Peter 3:15

Peter Day said...

It is not questioning or opposing Rob's view as such that is the cause of the concern behind this article. I think all of the people here who have listened to Rob have had questions, and some things we are still grappling with, searching the scriptures to see whether these things are true.

However, it is absolutely right to highlight the spirit behind the criticism. Comments like "Rob Rufus, the apologetic community is watching you and NCMI, and unfavorable reports are coming out from SA and Aust" are not showing "gentleness and reverence."

And most of the opposition that has come against Rob and against Florida has come from those who do simply reason from the scriptures. The Pharisees used to do that! They searched the scriptures and missed Him. And so many today do just have intellectual Bible knowledge. They can quote this or that, but deny the very supernatural power that the scriptures speak of.

By all means air concerns about Rob or Todd Bentley, but if concerns are to be aired, let us see not just arguments but the demonstration of the Spirit and of power.

jul said...

Sheila, good answer! I don't think I would argue with that, only the idea that most of the church has perpetuated that abstaining is to be in done in self effort in response to the law of God, rather than out of freedom. If you are trying to abstain without true freedom from sin's hold, the Spirit's power, and a conviction that true righteousness is a gift from God apart from works of the law, then you end up being beat around by the devil and his crew feeling destined to fail.

It can be counterproductive to teach people anything about what they should or shouldn't be doing if they don't firmly grasp grace, and even then we should be very careful in trying to understand why we may feel the need to teach people these things (speaking from my own personal experience). If we are teaching grace, then grace will teach us all to say 'no' to ungodliness, and it will set people free to be able to hear and follow the Spirit of God joyfully.

As for the critics, I guess what bothers me about many (not all) such 'discernment' ministries is the arrogant spirit that assumes they are coming from a position of absolutely or nearly absolutely perfect theology/doctrine. There are many false doctrines wrapped up in cute or impressive traditions that are perfectly accepted in the church while true doctrine that has been buried under these rituals for years and years is blatantly rejected for being weird. I think the way most churches do communion is weird and certainly not Biblical, but I'm not picking a pastor who's leading that way to write an article about and invite as many others who like a good stone throwing to join me in making whatever comments they like. I haven't seen the article in question, so I'm not commenting specifically on that. Where is it anyway?

And it seems to me a big reason why the religious crowd wanted to get rid of Jesus is that they thought he was a false teacher. Their definition of false teacher was that he didn't teach what they taught, and his teaching had authority to tear down the man made traditions. If a teaching doesn't come with power, it's usually ignored. What we should be discerning is what is the source of the power: heaven or hell? If it's hell, then by all means bring truth in the Spirit of grace to tear it down and set people free, if it's heaven perhaps we should not oppose it...

Mark said...

If my attitude seemed bad, the I am sorry.
I have had personal experience with NCMI which is fueled by Robs teaching, and my emotion might might have gotten the better of me. I hope you will all forgive me if my posts seemed more like an outburst.
I meant what I said about the apologetic community taking notice, because they are! I am hearing about NCMI a lot lately, through pastors from traditional churches that have to council people that have left the movement.
They are also getting in deep because of their "take the city" initiative that they have going here in my town. This has the church sending missionaries to other churches, because they lack the spirit.

jul said...

Mark, I'm not sure if I'm understanding you rightly or not, but do you think Rob is part of NCMI? Because actually I think some of his biggest criticisms are coming from there.

Also, thanks for explaining where you're coming from, many of us here have been through bad experiences with churches or groups of churches and can relate for sure! I hope God is leading you out of bondage into freedom and a place of enjoying your relationship with him like never before.

Mark said...

Yes he is. The links below show that.

http://www.ncmi.net/Resources/Downloads/EvangelismandHealingRobRufus/tabid/66/language/en-US/Default.aspx

http://pentecostalpostitnotes.blogspot.com/2008/05/rob-rufus-on-qualifications-to-do.html

http://ern-baxter.blogspot.com/2007/06/so-who-is-this-rob-rufus.html

jul said...

No, they show that he was. Why don't you e-mail Rob and Glenda and ask them?

Mark said...

They show that he is.

He is involved in a church in Hong Kong called "City Church International" and is part of an apostolic family of churches called; "New Covenant Ministries International" which was started by a man called Dudley Daniel. As soon as Rob Rufus met Dudley, the touch of God was heavy upon them. Rob said; "I got the shock of my life! I felt God say, ‘I have joined you to this man for ever!".

He even received prophecy saying that he would be joined to Dudley forever. Did this not come to pass, then he is guilty of false prophecy.

Anonymous said...

Trevor Says,

Mark - Rob Rufus and City Church International are definately no longer officially relating to the Apostolic/Prophetic team of NCMI. However after many years of working with them he still has many close relationships within the team and relating Churches which are very dear to him.Consequently he is still asked to minister into some NCMI churches who value him as a person and his ministry.
Surely that's the way it should be shouldn't it?
Relationships must not be discarded over doctrinal differences.Everyone has a right to their opinions but to critisise and or reject someone because they believe differently simply empowers the enemy who loves to see the Church divided.
On the issue of Dudley Daniel, I am well aware of the prophecy you mention but just because Rob is no longer part of the NCMI team has no bearing on his personal relationship with Dudley.
Their hearts have been knitted for a long long time which goes far beyond mere function.
I can't say for sure but but I would be very surprised if Rob & Dudleys personal relationship is not as strong as it always has been.
Lastly,I think to label someone a false prophet because they make a mistake is somewhat over the top.
The scripture says we prophecy in partand besides if we apply this criteria rigidly we would probably have to count most of the Prophets in the world today as false because no-one that I know gets it right all the time.
Many blessings to you.

jul said...

Mark, what Trevor says I know to be true, and as far as the false prophet thing, since when are you a false prophecy for receiving a prophetic word? Wouldn't you have to be the one giving it?

And as Trevor pointed out, even then that is not how we jusdge a New Covenant prophet. If you hold that standard of perfection then no gift should ever be exercised. You've never heard a preacher make a mistake? Is he then a false preacher? There is a vast difference between making a mistake and operating as a false_________(fill in the blank). A true false prophet would be a psychic or other person delivering information from demons.

The thing that really bothers me is the double standar many critics have. They tear down both people who make mistakes and admit it but then they tear down those who claim to hear God's voice perfectly all the time. It seems that ultimately the point is to tear down and not build up, shouldn't we be looking for every opportunity to build up instead? But then, this can't be expected unless people really understand grace.

Mark, I'm still saying much of that in a general sense because I don't know you at all. Obviously you are bitter and angry still about whatever happened to you and God will help you work through it as a kind and patient father.

Do you mind saying what your issue is with NCMI either here or e-mail me?

jul said...

oh and Mark I just realized you wrote that it was Rob who heard God speak not through another person, must have missed that somehow...